The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

I'll put it this way, if you want to claim BMM is the gold standard that proves that the online poker site RNG's don't exhibit those artifacts then send an email to Wikipedia with that certificate demanding they change their information on PRNG used for online poker. I bet you don't even have the balls to do that, and it cost you nothing. And if my taunt gives you the balls, I bet they don't change anything. Must be a conspiracy against online poker. You make big statements over and over again but can't back it up.

Yeah I know nothing about hardware and software RNG because GG uses a hardware RNG, NOT. Another distraction with your endless BS.

LOL at someone "not having the balls" to mail wikipedia

But here you show you not only have no knowledge of poker and the RNG but also you somehow dont know how wikipedia works. Also, you might need to let go of the assumption that something is true because wikipedia says so. Wikipedia articles are written by the general public.

You can read the way it works here
"Wikipedia articles are collaboratively written and edited by a global community of volunteer contributors, known as Wikipedians. Anyone can become a Wikipedian and contribute by creating new articles or editing existing ones. This means there's no single author for a Wikipedia page, but rather a dynamic process involving many different contributors over time"

If you did a simple google search on this before you posted another nonsense comment you would have known this. But you clearly didnt have the balls😃
You would also know that GG does in fact does not use a PRNG, no major poker site does.
You are the living embodiment of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

ACR is rigged, rigged and more rigged. The amount of times I've lost as a 80%+ favourite is unfathomable. Let's put it this way, I've lost around 80% of the time over THOUSANDS of hands when I was an 80+% favourite on the turn.

Literally a fkn joke. Who else is interested in taking legal action against ACR with me? I'm going to find the truth of what is really happening on this site.

You hear me ACR, the truth will come out! I will make it my life mission to now expose you crooks!!

How many thousands? how many times were you all in with 80%+ during those hands?

Where does it say on Wikipedia poker sites use a software rng?

So your current claim is that gg poker does not use a hardware rng but a sotfware rng and lies about it?

why the **** would they do that?

You seem really cofused mate.

I am in. Lets start where good truthseeking needs to start.. evidence.
You seem to have a case because losing 80% where you should have lost 20% over THOUSANDS of hands is quite significant.
Show us this proof, words alone are not enough.

What I mean is around 2000 hands where I was an 80% favourite on the turn, I have actually lost 78% of those times. So close to 1600 times I've lost when I was an 80% favourite on the turn out of 2000 times.

Yes that's a lot of hands played all in, and yes I've lost tens of thousands of $ now over some time. I'm never playing there again.

Yes I understand what you mean and I was saying the exact same thing..
Now you need to understand what I said. Because again, its just words and no proof.

Losing 78% while you should be winning 80% of the time is quite something. But anyone can write that sentence.
You seem to have tracked your data so you can confidently say over 1600 turn all-ins you had an avg equity of 80% but only won 22%. You must have this data in your Holdem manager or other poker tracker. Please show us that data.

I for one believe chippity sight unseen.

Bro Slugant is just trying to confuse you with statistics, math, facts and rhetoric.

Dont fall for it.

I'm away from my computer for some time and been typing this from a hotel room on my phone.

Anyway, I'll sort when I'm back. I'm gathering as much evidence as I can to expose these crooks!!

omg this scam site.. both tournaments i was crushing today (60 plus vpip in both).and in 2nd place with 10-11 left in both, 1st place open shoves aces i have KK both time and would have all chips or final table bubble and they have aces over my kings both times.

It depends how many hands you've played in total. I am sure I also have lost over 2k hands when 80% favourite on the turn. But anyway we look forward to seeing the hands.

you are literally the first person ever to get kk

Why do you keep playing btw if you "this is a scam site"?

I think I have about 10k+ lifetime but that doesnt mean anything and of course clippity understand this, you cant cherry pick hands
Otherwise I just filter my tracker to show all the lost flips and then claim I never ever won a flip in my life🙂

Chippity will very soon filter to show that over the last 2k hands where he had 80% on the turn he actually lost 78% of them. Quite a significant deviation so def looking forward to these stats/hands being proven😀

I'm playing on my phone to gather more evidence.

Just now this happened in $0.50/1 PLO, I have AsAcKsKc in big blind. I 4 bet to pot, get 2 callers. Flop comes a dream, it's A 2 7 rainbow. I am not letting it check round to induce bluffs on this scam site so I bet 3 quarters of pot. I get raised, I then just jam it all in for all my stack. They call me. What do they have!? 6789. Yes 6789!!!! Turn comes a 5 and the river is a 4!

You really can't make this up! Another bad loss and another $100 gone.

Hahahaha hahaha hahahaha hahaha

I find it difficult to why anyone would stick up for online sites, when it’s glaringly obvious it’s not a completely random thing.

I’m a small time online player of 23yrs, I’m about £30k in profit and have also been a ‘staked’ player by an online staking site. I have no real grudge to bear to tell lies, which on other forums is inevitably the initial troll cry.

You all see what i see. If you are a true poker fanatic, it should disgust you as it is so far from a real game as you can get.. why back it?? If we all stuck together, we could get a real poker experience within a short period of time.

Let’s consider the facts of ANY business;

The main objective is to maximise profits

They want to retain customers

They want to grow

There is weekly board meetings in all companies to discuss how to do this to the best effect. If you believe online poker or not, you would have to admit, to have a deck that produced endless long odds results or one that produces action hands, it would achieve 2 things;

1. It would maximise rake (clearly if someone flops trips, another a nut flush draw, another top 2 pair, this will achieve max rake for that hand).

2. It will mean the poorer players/‘calling stations’ will not lose money at the rate that mathematically they should, therefore retaining customers that they maybe would lose within weeks… to the player going bust OR to financial deposit rules.

3 You retain half decent players (like me), who can still eeek out a small profit, albeit a reduced one to what maths dictates.

So unfortunately, there is a big incentive to have a deck that does this. To think it’s not even been considered, is a very naive view if you have never been involved in business.

Now let’s consider the ‘regulation’, you know that thing that players argue is so good, that sites would be ‘shut down’ if it was ever proven?

There is no-one looking for anything to be proven. Email The Gambling Commission if you think this untrue. Their banners suggest they authorise and regulate the decks… they don’t… they regulate responsible gambling and the business side, not the game itself. They issue the sites certificates based on a 3rd party audit alone (I have many emails to them on this subject) and do not have the manpower to consider anything to do with poker specifically (their words, not mine!). There is no-one there who knows anything about poker.

I’ve also questioned the 3rd party auditors, who initially reply boasting ‘award winning technology’. When probed further it appears they audit for how often each card comes out in comparison to others…. And NOT how it affects the hand! They swiftly stop replying when asked if they could tell me if they knew poker odds and if they could run my entire database through their award winning technology.

So we have a business trying to maximise profit, who’s aware that there is a regulator that has no interest in poker and an auditor who’s auditing in the wrong manner.

The believers are naive enough to think in a business renowned for greed, that they are playing clean, despite online sites knowing no-one is looking if they wanted to maximise profit.

Tip

If you want to make a small profit from online poker, adjust your game completely, do not play for big pots with cards left to come! The normal maths won’t happen and protecting your hand by giving your opponent no pot odds to call will bite you hard! Poker books will not work online!

You said you were never playing there again??? You arent making stuff up in this thread now are you?

But with this case added its not 1600 hands anymore, but 1601. Not really an increase evidence wise, since we still havent seen anything.

Hi, im new here. I have a question. How far off would the math have to be over say a couple hundred thousand hands for a RNG to be considered flawed ? i'll give an example of what i mean, say for instance in 200k hands you had AA vs AK suited all in 500 times and instead of winning those hands 87% of the time you only won 60% of them, would that be considered flawed ?

I would think anything over about 10% in that large of a sample would be a major problem ?

There is no set rule like "if its 61% its OK, but 60% it must be that the RNG is flawed"
In your example btw, it doesnt really matter if the 500 times aa vs aks is in 200k hands or 300k hands unless you think you should be getting them way more/less.
I would say over 500 times having 87% avg equity and reaching 60% is quite extreme, yet we only see that sentence and no actual proof so nobody here can do much with it

You could toy around with variance calculators, primedope has a good one. Its not tailored for this specific calculation but you can see how crazy variance is can be.
Over 200k hands a 6max NLH player with a "true winrate" of 2.5 will be losing in that 200k hand sample 17,6% of the time. Even though 200k hands sounds like a lot.

2+2 also has a Math subforum where you can find a lot more interesting stuff about math/calculations. This thread is more specific for Riggedness i.e. flawed RNG. But just saying you run bad hints way more at bad variance than anything else. I always wonder why people who blame the RNG with zero proof dont blame other stuff they have zero proof for like saying they are hacked or have bad karma from a previous life.

I notice ‘Slugant’ has a lot to say on the subject of the consistently strange deck performances, but has not been able to comment on my post on the almost non-existent regulation.

It always makes me laugh at the people who have ‘sold out poker’ for this dangerous version insist that players could provide ‘conclusive proof’ ( I say dangerous as consider the talented teenager, who has honed game has earned himself a decent bankroll… only to lose it all when he trys the game online… hes told decks will even out in the long run… he believes it and as we know, they never do…what would his mental state of mind be?)

You could spend 6 months gathering the evidence, as there is no programme that exists to run hundreds of thousands of hands through. And if you manually finally gathered the info, guess what?

The Gambling Commission would not be interested, or have the resources to even look at it or indeed, have anyone who could decipher the info.

The auditors such as ECogra, would not even reply, as their testing is not written to do anything other than to audit how often each card comes out.

So tell me, who could confirm or deny someone who felt they had the proof?

You believe bookmakers/gambling sites renowned for greed, are not maximising profit, even though they could, with the knowledge that regulation is in this ridiculously poor state? They could do it knowing no-one cares enough to look at it? But they don’t?

That is some trust you have in companies who have been fined millions and millions (subscribe to The Gambling Commissions newsletter to read the endless fines) for activities such as emailing tempting offers to self-excluded gambling addicts to start playing again…

They have such a good reputation when it comes to playing clean and being considerate to the punters dont they, that your trust is quite frankly, astounding and indeed inexplicable.

There is absolutely no-one who should believe in this rubbish 100%, you know what you see while playing, you know the industrys greed, you know the regulation is inadequate.

Yet we have these believers who mock the players trying to resolve it. These can only be people with a vested interest or an ulterior motive.

Exactly that ^^ TheWaddy, you are full of statement you say as truths but with zero backing
You say you lost your total br online, thats not evidence that online poker is rigged, in fact it would easier be evidence to claim that you dont know a lot about online poker in general.

I have provided certified RNG checks by impartial professional companies. If you think they are flawed whereas your "you know what you see while playing" is actual proof you have something to learn about actual evidence.

The fact that gambling companies are out to make a buck and in the past there have been player who self-excluded but still got emails is not something they could be proud of. But how does that prove a rigged RNG, which is the issue here. You say "decks will even out in the long run…and as we know, they never do".
Who is "we"? Most winning players arent included in this "we" i can tell you.
Also, one again, you've failed to provide any evidence of this statement. How can "we" take it serious? Especially since you seem to disgregard any evidence on the contrary.
Furthemore, in the long-run a fair RNG will keep players playing so they can earn a buck. If someone actually proved the RNG was rigged (which has never happened) players would avoid that site and they would make less money. A pokersite doesnt care if you or any other insignificant players has a cold or warm deck.

You say the RNG is rigged and you are one of the players trying to resolve it. But are you? What are you doing to resolve it? Just spewing unfounded theories about online poker hasnt gotten us any further ever and it never will. If you are trying to resolve this, come back once you have gathered solid data and evidence and post that. Real evidence I would never be able to dispute and I will definitely avoid that specific pokersite.

You said before:
"Let’s consider the facts of ANY business;
The main objective is to maximise profits
They want to retain customers
They want to grow"

Do you really think a pokersite will grow and retain customers with a rigged RNG? If you do, you have bigger problems than just being bad at poker.

Than you gave us a tip:
"Tip
If you want to make a small profit from online poker, adjust your game completely, do not play for big pots with cards left to come! The normal maths won’t happen and protecting your hand by giving your opponent no pot odds to call will bite you hard!"

Now who wouldnt take a tip from someone who just said they busted their entire bankroll online?🙂
If you play the way you describe there I can tell you that your loss is not due to a rigged RNG. Its probably not even due to variance. Its due to a very flawed look at online poker. Other players, many players, who actually study and have a talent are making a living out of it. Do they all get a favored RNG? And if so, how? Because I would like one too😀

The online poker industry has a terrible name.
45% of people on this forum poll dont believe totally that what they are seeing is true.

Go on Trustpilot and put in any poker site of your choice, the overwhelming outcome is they score really, really badly on a trust scoring site. Most score around 1.5 out of 5. All sites, thousands of reviews.

So my question is, why when their industry is taking a complete battering on trust, dont THEY prove it??

Wouldnt that be something you would have thought they would do very quickly when they saw the reviews and the repetitive experiences?

Afterall, they say they have auditors with award winning technology… why wouldn’t they act quickly to save their reputation and restore confidence?

Ive asked directly what testing these auditors actually do and why cant we see the results that result in awarding sites certification…eCogras reply avoided the question and 3 sites just sent me a copy of their certificate!

This is the industry with appalling reviews, this is the industry who say they have the technology to prove it… Yet they put the onus on to the player to prove otherwise.

Why is that? They could nip their appalling reputation in the bud overnight but don’t. Instead they challenge the player for evidence, like an accused criminal would do. Nice.

Really reliable way of acting, fills you with confidence.

Better still, they could allow any doubting player to allow the auditor to put through their entire hand history through their award winning technology…. now wouldnt that be something! Accessible to all. Industry reputation restored, everyone’s a winner.

Very easy for the sites to prove, if they had the technology (they dont) if the decks performed to odds (they dont)….But they choose to challenge their dwindling client base to disprove it and let their industry get appalling reviews instead.

Can you think of anything other than the obvious reason, to why they would choose a cloak and dagger attitude to auditing and the methods they use?

Oh and when I gave the example of how dangerous The Gambling Commisions inept way of regulation is, it was a hypothetical situation of a teenager losing his money and the mental effect…. It was not a statement that is was ME that had lost his entire bankroll online!

And yes I do think the poker sites arrived at the best way to retain customers was to revert to a poker stars type deck after Black Friday…. With an element enhancing hands and protecting the poorer player… and I will agree with you that indeed it wasn’t the best idea, as online poker numbers are plummeting each year.

Oh so its hypothetical?? OK let me rebuttle that by the hypothetical situation that someone works hard on online poker, is naturally talented at makes a living out of it.. There, problem solved. And for many of us, its not even hypothetical, its reality.

Because of people like you. 90% of poker players are losing money, its a tough environment. People cannot accept that they are not good enough so they complain. Winners like me dont go on trustpilot to evaluate a pokersite. Losers with a grudge will. People (and especially losing poker players) are incredbily perceptive to confirmation bias. They will remember every bad beat but the brain doesnt remember the fortunate situations. Furthermore, most people cannot correctly assess their own poker skill (Johnmir for instance, a microstakes loser who thinks he is an elite player). The skill to assess your own level correctly correlates heavily with the skill to actually properly beat the game. Which is why losers will often complain that the game isnt fair. When I speak to people IRL who dont know how to play for **** so they lost a bit online in a short spell they always say they feel it was unfair. They never say it felt like they had no clue how to play actual good poker.

And if you look at the poll of this thread, for which the same can be said, 35% said Yes to the question if poker is rigged, not 45%. But how is that proof? And why is the majority overlooked for the fewer?

Also, how can online pokersites regain trust of those who cant accept their losses? every major site has their rng checked. If you still think believe its rigged you are looking away from actual evidence. Which again, no major site has been proven to have a rigged rng is all those years of online poker. What does that tell you?

Do you believe the stars RNG was different before black friday?? So they lost the american market and decided that would be nice time to start rigging their RNG? Why?

A lot of players were able to beat poker before black friday and arent today.
Markets have gotten isolated and with fewer players there is simply less money to be made. Also the skill-level of the average players has gotten a lot better due to tools, software, coaching programmes etc. Beating poker will keep on getting harder and harder, but that has nothing to with the RNG.

Again, a lot of wild staments like "the rng was different pre-black friday" but zero evidence. Yet you say this as if its true.

Why is it that riggies always throw out extremely bold statement but never provide any evidence with it?
Botfarms exist, they have been proven and caught.
Superusers exist, they have been proven and caught.
Colliders and RTA'ers exist, they have been proven and caught.
Never ever has there been a proven case of a rigged RNG. And if someone claims it is rigged, provide evidence. Otherwise we will just keep on talking hypotheticals, which will get us absolutely nowhere.

Responses along the lines of "they cant prove to me that it is fair, so I chose to believe it is unfair" will also get us nowhere.
It is also in a way disrepectful to the players who work hard every day to study and play poker on a high level, because that of course has nothing to with it right? They just have a favored account.. Wtf does Linus even know about poker? He is not better than me because I beat midstakes and he beats the highest stakes... Its all because of the RNG.

And responses like "poker sites are trying to make a profit thats why they screw you over" are along the same lines of hypothetical rethoric without evidence.
Yea, my local bakery also tries to make a profit.. what a terrible company, they must put poison in the bread!