GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Among all-timers with 3+ Finals appearances, only Pippen failed to reach a 19.0 gamescore (peak Horry caliber), aka 0 for 6
Imagine living in a world where you didn't think Pippen helped MJ win Championships. Must be a sad world. I mean even MJ says it.
Hornacek was playing on one leg by the ‘98 Finals. The rest of that Jazz roster was as bad as anything ever dragged into June. Give S/M AK47/Okur or Hayward/Gobert or even just Joe ****ing Ingles, or maybe just draft Hornacek in the first place and never trade Thurl Bailey for LMAO Tyrone Corbin—a decision that had horrifying unforeseeable consequences years later—bla blah.
Jerry Sloan, as great as he was, made a terrible strategic mistake not embracing the Splash Brothers concept versus the Bulls and with the DWill teams, and a mystifying tactical blunder not doubleteaming Jordan.
Anyone that won 3+ Finals needed a teammate to get FMVP or 25 ppg for at least one of the Finals.
The only exception is MJ, since Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 15-21 PPG in the Finals
To be fair it was Kobe that cost the Lakers the series against Detroit. Shaq was good. Kobe thought it would be a good idea to take 30 more shots in the series (and make 10 less) than Shaq.
A bird's eye view of the situation says that the lack of unity in 04' was because the Lakers needed to turn the team over to Kobe in 03' but didn't .. It was still Shaq's team even though it should've been Kobe's team by then... This discord caused the big upset loss in 04'.
But if they had already turned the team over to Kobe like they should have, they could've had another dynasty because Kobe showed that he could win with Pau at sidekick, let alone Shaq... But Shaq needed to take a back seat and didn't - that's why the Lakers lost - it was because Shaq was late in turning the team over to Kobe
^^^ jordan won IN SPITE of worst-ever efficiency and lane-clogging from his 2nd option
Imagine living in a world where you didn't think Pippen helped MJ win Championships.
First of all, Pippen cost the Bulls 3 titles from 88-90'.
Secondly, Pippen averaged 15.7 on 34% in the 96' Finals, so they won those finals IN SPITE of pippen.. And there were many other series where Pippen nearly caused loss or a 7-game series like the 92' ECSF (X-Man debacle), or the 98' ECF (16 on 39%).. He was also historically locked down in the 93' 1st Round vs Dominique (15 on 33%) and the 96-98' Playoffs (17 on 41%), which included worst-ever efficiency on 2 runs - see previous post)... So how does it HELP to have worst-ever efficiency and lane-clogging from a sidekick?.. Jordan was forced to win IN SPITE of pippen.
Ultimately, the 91' Playoffs is the only run where Pippen didn't cause loss or nearly cause loss.
Btw, Pippen shot 0% on threes and 59% FT's in the 93' Finals (47 TS).. This matters because his low efficiency couldn't handle additional load, which forced MJ to average 41 ppg.
So again, the Bulls won in spite of Pippen.. He's just the low-producing, "never hit a big shot" choker was lucky to have a tenure alongside the goat entering his prime... Woolridge would've won titles with Jordan if he was gifted a tenure with prime Jordan like Pippen was.. Furthermore, expansion eliminated the super-teams of the 80's, so the 90's was a 2-star vs 2-star format, and ANYONE wins alongside the goat in such a format... This was a tougher format because it's easier to be 1 of 2 super-teams with a free pass to the Finals then 1 of MANY finals-caliber teams (one of many 2 star teams).
Finally, it's impossible to replace Kareem's goat offense, or the first sidekick to outplay the league MVP (kyrie), or the #4 all-time PER (AD), or the #3 all-time SG and FMVP mentor (Wade)... Otoh, Pippen was replaceable by any 15 ppg scorer, since he wasn't capable of 15 ppg outside the triangle.. In a regular offense, he's just a 14 ppg dunker... And again, the defense that is lost by replacing Pippen with a lesser defender can be made up by getting rim protection (which the Bulls never had), or upgrading the non-defensive Paxson to Derek Harper or Vernon Maxwell.. There's simply many ways to skin a cat defensively... Meanwhile, Pippen's weak offense required more scoring help, thus hurting capacity to add defenders - a better scorer in Pippen's place allows capacity to add defenders instead of the expensive spacers and scorers that Pippen needs... So Pippen's defense is a non-factor in replacing him.
Finally, I want to address the argument that "even Jordan himself said Pippen was good"... This argument says that Jordan is a child and dumbass that doesn't know how to "play the game"... But the reality is that Jordn knows that he could never sh*t on his teammates publicly or directly... But look at the Last Dance where Jordan MADE SURE people knew the truth that Pippen was a "migraine" choker and then he abandoned his team in the trenches during the 94' Playoffs.. Do you think MJ put that stuff in there by accident?... Do you think MJ was averaging 41 in the 93' Finals but still thinking "Pippen is such a big help"... Smh.... C'mon bro... I'm sure that you normally pay attention to numbers and take numbers seriously, except when evaluating Jordan's goat carry-jobs, smh
In addition to Horry, many other bums have peaks that exceed Pippen's because Pippen's peak was low.. Pippen's peak capability was the lowest among notable 90's sidekicks, since he was the only 2nd option that was more of a defender and hustle player instead of a go-to player - Pippen was the only 2nd option that was a system player and not a real go-to player that could "go of
Dumb question but you think is fair comparing sidekick value ?
I mean you basically say pippen suck because he never could carry the goat as a sidekick ?
Great logic buddy .
Maybe it just means mj is the goat not that pippen suck ?
If pippen was good enough to carry mj sonetimes , mj would not be the goat ….
First of all, Pippen cost the Bulls 3 titles from 88-90'.Secondly, Pippen averaged 15.7 on 34% in the 96' Finals, so they won those finals IN SPITE of pippen.. And there were many other series where Pippen nearly caused loss or a 7-game series like the 92' ECSF (X-Man debacle), or the 98' ECF (16 on 39%).. He was also historically locked down in the 93' 1st Round vs Dominique (
That isn’t the point!
Without a good pippen , mj could not win.
And don’t worry it’s normal and it doesn’t diminish at all mj
Mj proved he needed decent player since he got ejected everything in the first round .
Keeping saying lippe sucked and is a worst players then Jordy because Jordy had 1 great 4 games series one year is pretty stupid …..
But hey Kobe better then mj because one game he scored 80+ pts ….
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Must-hear praise about Stockton by Gary Payton and Baron Davis:
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/1nl5hzIYWP4
Hornacek was playing on one leg by the ‘98 Finals. The rest of that Jazz roster was as bad as anything ever dragged into June. Give S/M AK47/Okur or Hayward/Gobert or even just Joe ****ing Ingles, or maybe just draft Hornacek in the first place and never trade Thurl Bailey for LMAO Tyrone Corbin—a decision that had horrifying unforeseeable consequences years later&#
Most people had Stockton above Isiah back then - Stockton is literally a goat PG, and Gary Payton is adamant in saying he's the goat PG (link above).
So having Stockton and Malone is like having Isiah and Duncan - you don't need much of a cast with a core like that.. Yet Hornacek is overkill at 3rd option (he's normally 2nd or 1st option), and then Ostertag, Russell and Shandon Anderson is a good defensive core (along with all-defenders like Stockton & Malone).
Jazz were stacked to the brim, while also being a 10-year organic juggernaut that is on the Mount Rushmore of chemistry and brand of ball.
If Pippen had a viable peak capability that was scouting report-worthy, he wouldn't have to worry about bums like Horry easily exceeding the best he ever played.Unfortunately, Pippen's peak capability was 20 automatic system points or transition, and less than 15 outside the system, while having worst-ever efficiency (can't shoot)... This means that any Tom, Dick and Harry can
Look at duncan about being a « system player » with below a 20ppg average career.
He sucked too .
Btw , pippen lead his team an entire playoffs season .
In 1994 in assist , pts , rebn and steal and a dominating defense player .
What did horry did again for 4 games ? lol….
Losing barely in 7 games at CF … yeah je sucks lol.
A bird's eye view of the situation says that the lack of unity in 04' was because the Lakers needed to turn the team over to Kobe in 03' but didn't .. It was still Shaq's team even though it should've been Kobe's team by then... This discord caused the big upset loss in 04'.But if they had already turned the team over to Kobe like they should have, they could've had another dy
Imagine blaming Shaq for the loss. How was this not Kobe's team?
Kobe vs Shaq shot attempts.
Kobe took 4 more shots per game in the regular season
Kobe took 8 more shots per game in the first round
Kobe took 8 more shots per game in the second round
Kobe took 8 more shots per game in the WCF
Kobe took 6 more shots per game in the Kobe
I ask again, how was this not Kobe's team?
If you ask me, it's exactly opposite. It should have been Shaq's team and then they would have won it all. Like they did 3 of the 4 years before that.
Btw , pippen lead his team an entire playoffs season .
In 1994 in assist , pts , rebn and steal and a dominating defense player .
Pippen wasn't considered a franchise player that can build a team from scratch - he was simply handed a fully-developed dynasty - the most well-oiled machine ever...
They were the only team without a 2nd scoring option, so they won via 3-peat chemistry, honeymoon period, and sleeping opponents - i.e. no one cared about playing the Bulls once MJ suddenly retired right before the season started.. Ultimately, the "real" Bulls without MJ were meltdown 2nd Round losers and barely .500 in 95'.
Imagine blaming Shaq for the loss. How was this not Kobe's team?Kobe vs Shaq shot attempts.Kobe took 4 more shots per game in the regular seasonKobe took 8 more shots per game in the first roundKobe took 8 more shots per game in the second roundKobe took 8 more shots per game in the WCFKobe took 6 more shots per game in the KobeI ask again, how was this not Kobe's team?If you a
^^^ Yeah but all of that was considered "breaking the offense" and bad shots because Shaq thought it was still his team instead of being the "Pau" that he was supposed to be... If Shaq had accepted his "Pau" role, then Kobe wouldn't have to yank shots away and have the bad chemistry or be considered chucking - it would've been the same free-flowing offense with Kobe at the helm like it was when Kobe/Pau won back-to-back titles... There's no reason that Kobe/Shaq couldn't win back-to-back, except that Shaq didn't want to relinquish control of the team to Kobe.. Hope that makes sense.. Lebron is actually doing the same thing right now to Luka, except to a much greater extent (aka turning a Finals player like Luka into a 1st Round loser, underachiever, and bum that needs more help).
Lakers should trade lebron/ny while they can still get a premium, though the ntc complicates it.
Miami or Cavs? Spurs yeah nah yeah?
Lakers should trade lebron/ny while they can still get a premium, though the ntc complicates it.
Miami or Cavs? Spurs yeah nah yeah?
You'll never be able to tell that a ball-dominator has fallen off, since they always have the ball in their hands and therefore can rack up stats.
But they no longer win the all-important "attrition battle" at the heart of every basketball game, i.e. they don't foster a forceful offense that wears down an opponent defensively, thereby giving them less capacity for offense.. The team on their heels defensively will have less capacity to "get hot" offensively.. aka the best defense is a good offense - a tenet of all competition.
Unfortunately, defenses don't get worn down defending Lebron's ever-increasing plodding - aka LePlod - just watch highlights of him from 2009 and you will see within 2 seconds what I mean - the current Lebron is a snail by comparison.. So Lebron has no force anymore, just like an old man - he can't wear down defenses anymore (thus leaving them less capacity for offense).. He doesn't win the attrition battle anymore...
Since Lebron can't wear down the opponent, the Lakers face fresh opponents and therefore have maximum defensive requirements - Lebron doesn't lower his team's defensive requirements by wearing down the opponent (facing worn-down opponents).. Again, all of this is called "being old".
Btw, the reality is that Lebron's ball-dominant style has always let defenses rest and has never won the attrition battle like the zippy ball movement teams that destroy him (Spurs, Warriors, Nuggets, Mavs, etc).. It's one of the reasons that all ball-dominators are beneath the best of other skillsets that favor ball movement, such as jumpshooters or bigs (who are assisted on a lot of their shots).. Since ball-dominators are beneath the best bigs or jumpshooters, they're outside the top 10 all-time.
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Here's Horry scoring 20 points in the 4th to single-handedly win Game 5 of the 05' Finals and put the Spurs up 3-2 - Pippen never "took over" in the 4th or hit the big shots:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZdik09R...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjPgAQQs...
This is in addition to Horry's 95' Finals (be better than Pippen ever played)
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Here's Horry scoring 20 points in the 4th to single-handedly win Game 5 of the 05' Finals and put the Spurs up 3-2- Pippen never "took over" in the 4th or hit the big shots:
^^^ Every player in history required teammates to takeover like Horry did, such as Bird needing McHale to takeover, or Hakeem needing Drexler to takeover, or Lebron needing AD, Wade, and Kyrie to takeover.... Otoh, Jordan is the only guy that had a 1-man team.. So it's pretty simple and clear-cut.. Outside of the goat, everyone in history needed teammates like Horry to takeover or Parker to win FMVP... Infact, anyone that won 3+ Finals needed a teammate to get FMVP or 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals, except Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg.
Kenny Smith describes it well here:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/58K770Ld-...
Everyone knows that there are 10 players on the court, so no one wins playing 1 on 5, but MJ's Bulls were as close to a 1-man champion as anyone has ever gotten.. That's why MJ is goat.
MJ won with 2005 Hughes-caliber:
Regular Season
05' HUGHES......... 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 2.4 OBPM.... 1.9 DBPM... 22/6/5 and 2.9 spg... 1st Team Defense
93' PIPPEN........... 19.2 PER... 0.132 WS/48... 2.6 OBPM.... 1.4 DBPM... 19/8/6 and 2.1 spg... 1st Team Defense
Playoffs
05' HUGHES......... 16.6 PER... 0.083 WS/48... 1.3 OBPM'... -0.2 DBPM... 21/7/4 and 2.0 spg... 1st Team Defense
93' PIPPEN........... 16.9 PER... 0.083 WS/48... 1.1 OBPM..... 0.8 DBPM... 20/7/6 and 2.2 spg... 1st Team Defense
This isn't a "good" Pippen, yet MJ still won:
92' ECSF
Pippen........ 16 on 40%
X-Man......... 19 on 50%
MJ also won with Pippen averaging 16.9 on 39% for the 96' Playoff run, which included 15.7 on 34% in the Finals and the worst shooting splits that anyone ever had for a playoff run of 35 MPG and 15 games.
He also shot 0% on threes and 59% from the line in the 93' Finals (47 TS), so he couldn't handle additional load and forced MJ to average 41 ppg.. Pippen averaged 15 on 33% against Dominique during that run too, while having the lowest advanced stats ever for a sidekick on a winning playoff run (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, TS) - it was Hughes-caliber, shown above.
So the only playoff run where Pippen didn't wet the bed was 91', while every series loss or 7-game series that the Bulls ever had can be traced to Pippen's horrible play and bed-wetting.. New fans quickly forget that Jordan never had a bad series - only Pippen did, so every loss or near-loss can be traced to him.
Mj proved he needed decent player since he got ejected everything in the first round .
Pippen wasn't a decent player in 88' or 89', yet Jordan still developed the Bulls to the 2nd best team in the league by the end of the 89' Playoffs before Phil arrived.. Let that sink in..
i.e. The Pistons were 22-1 in the 89' and 90' Playoffs against other teams, but only 8-5 against Jordan's 1-man team.. So again, Jordan had already developed the Bulls to the 2nd-best team in the league by the end of the 89' Playoffs despite Pippen being bad and Phil yet to arrive.. Carry on
Keeping saying Pippen sucked and is a worst players then Horry because Horry had 1 great 4 games series one year is pretty stupid …..
But hey Kobe better then mj because one game he scored 80+ pts ….
Again, you and Fidstar are forced to compare Jordan to goat scorers like peak Kobe, peak Wilt, and peak Harden, while I only need bums like Horry or Hughes to compare to Pippen..
So that's the point - Pippen was a bum, so he can be compared easily to other bums - i.e. in addition to the Horry or Hughes examples, guys like old man/fatboy/alcoholic Kemp outplayed Pippen against the 98' Pacers in the playoffs with 26 on 48% versus 16.6 on 39% for Pippen... Pippen's poor play caused the 7-game series and near-loss in the ECF.
It would've been Pippen's choke if the Bulls lost the 98' ECF, yet no one would view it that way because all wins and losses fell on MJ's shoulders... Due to MJ's greatness and shouldering all blame, no one ever tracked or paid attention to how Pippen was playing - this shows that he wasn't really a star because he faced no scrutiny, accountability or blame for losses - everyone knew he was a system player that rarely created his own shot or took initiative to shoulder the load.. Since the Bulls were winning and it was all on MJ if they lost, everyone gave Pippen a pass - it's part of the reason he's so overrated.
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Regular Season
Playoffs
The consensus was that the 15' Warriors weren't a good roster, such as +2800 preseason odds and a lower producer than Hornacek at 2nd option.. So the 67 and 73 wins means that CURRY did a goat thing, not Lebron.. Lebron doesn't deserve props for beating a 1-man team with the only "big 3" super-team in the league and the preseason favorite.
Lebron also had unprecedented help with a 2nd option outplaying the MVP - that's like Mathurin outplaying SGA or Pippen outplaying MVP Barkley - it's impossible to lose in this scenario. yet Lebron needed 7 games because he wet the bed through 4 games (24 and 6 TO's).. So Lebron shouldn't get MORE credit for coming back, since a dominant performance or knockout is better than having to get off the canvas and basically get lucky.
Comparing Klay with Hornacek is amazing.
Based on your logic...
Michael Jordan is so bad that he struggled to beat a team led by someone at the same caliber of 05 Hughes.
How is he even in the GOAT conversation?
05' HUGHES......... 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 4.1 BPM... 22/6/5 and 2.9 spg... 1st Team Defense
98' Miller ........... 19.8 PER... 0.206 WS/48... 4.9 BPM.... 19/2/3 and 1.0 spg... No all NBA defense.
05 Larry Hughes shall NOT be besmirched in this thread.
