5/10: another combo-draw spot

I'm fine with Pre, though I'm sure others will think this is a 3b or fold spot.

Flop is interesting. We have monster equity beating pairs, but obviously an unmde hand; however 4 ways I think I check behind; hard to fault a bet though.

Not sure what's going on on turn (2p or set perhaps from v2), but call is good.

And on River v1 comes alive when the board pairs and the flush hits. Wow. Decision is call or fold. Raise would never get called by worse.

There aren't many flushes in his range, and nearly all of them have Ac, so what does he have? Seems weird way to play overpair, so probably rule that out. Perhaps slow playing a set, now made boat?

I think this is a fold; whether I find it in real time is a different question.

When I first glanced at it I didn't realize H flopped 2nd NFD (2 out straight flush), and thought it was just the 6 out straight draw.

Maybe raise turn brick, unless we know wtf V2 is doing.
Although it's kind of an obvious bad play for a set that sees 666 draws on the flop and waits until the turn. It's not like he can have overpairs.
Maybe he has JT.

River we are beat by flopped sets, and V2 is still to act.
If it was just V1 I probably sigh call, but it's not a great spot even then.

When V1 overcalls flop, calls turn donk and then bets river when the flush hits ... I assume it's very likely he has a big flush, and there's nut flush and 9 high available ... for sure he has 9c8c/9c7c/8c7c combos but lots of NFD. Also some chance he has TT and was confused.

And we still need V2 to have JT.

Ok I don't play 5/10

So take this for what's it's worth.

V1 makes no sense, I thought he had an overpair for a second until he bet river???
Fd makes no sense, sets make no sense.
I guess A4cc is possible that didn't bet/raise flop for super passive player.
I guess slowplaying JJ is also possible if he's super tricky trappy.

V2 reps a set or 46?? or 6x fd?

So river seems like a fold.
V2 reps super strong with turn donk then checks on river seems like he's luring the trap after river pairs and flush got there at the same time.
Question is can we really beat v1 and v2?
V1 has some nut flushes some random misplayed jj.
V2 has some sets and some small flushes that's check/calling river.

Preflop yes I would 3bet by default, but understand your argument for a call.

Flop I think you can bet or check. Heads up/3 way I would tend to bet. 4 way I might be inclined to check back unless you think there's enough of an equity gain to be made by flushing some people out. Betting an open ended straight flush draw can never be bad.

Turn donk feels like BS and I really want to raise now particularly after V1 calls.

River is rough. We can't tell what V2 check means and V1 may well have the nut flush. Either of them can have a boat. Feels like it could well be a fold.

If you did call and if V2 check-jams then it shouldn't open the betting up again for V1...correct?

Interesting hand

This is an unusual hand, particularly on the turn and river.

I don't mind Hero's reasoning for flatting preflop; the vibe of V1 being nutted matters, given the river action (it's also relevant that we block AcKc and AcQc).

So starting with V1's range on the river we could say he has TT-AA as well as some AK-AQ and KQs, that is a spread of busted draws, overpairs and full-houses, which is confusing because you'd think he'd bet larger with his busted draws as a bluff and bet or x-r earlier with his sets and overpairs. It's possible he'd play QQ-AA like this but not that likely.

V2 in the BB can have JT, 44 and maybe a little JJ and TT that didn't squeeze preflop. Playing all Jx with this x-c donk60 x line doesn't make as much sense, but once again is possible, albeit unlikely. V2 seems more polar with some nut flushes and full houses, perhaps some worse flushes which are heavily discounted by the T-K clubs blockers on the board and in our hand.

I would still call here but wouldn't be happy about it and certainly looking for tells from V2, keeping in mind that he has only $500 left in his stack (i.e. is V2 in "sigh, have to call because of pot odds" mode or in a sheepish nutted mode in which he pretends he's lost interest).

As played I think it's fine. His river bet is total value could be A6 with the ace of clubs could be a flush could be a boat really hard to know without knowing more about V1. There are a lot of hands he could have here any two pair possible trips a crappy or nutted flush. Either way his bet looks like extreme value for 600$ I wouldn't be able to get away myself, but in no way am I jamming. Pretty sigh call to me.

Ouch. I think it's played fine, but I give up on the river vs. V1's bet. Really hard to believe he's bluffing here or betting a worse hand, unless he is absolutely clueless.

Can't this be AcAx from V1? Just having a hard time finding other hands a,

kind of V opens from EP and plays this passively until the river. Though bad players love trapping, presumably at 5/10 too. I just can't see 'this' player doing this with A9cc on down.

Probably calling because neither V's really played it like they had a set up til now, and H does have the 2NF.

This is probably wrong, lol. Interesting hand, as noted.

I call River all day and not having any second thoughts about it. Surely you’re good ~1/2 the time here.

I think the flop sizing is a bit awkward, but calling turn, calling river looks good.

Against other villain profiles would raise the river more frequently. KQcc blocks the premium Ax:cc combinations, with the jtcc on board, but even so this is a spot where it may be hard for villain to call you down with enough worse hands.

It's a weird line from villain regardless of what he has. Maybe AA or QQ makes the most sense.

Thank you all for the feedback.
Some further thoughts from my side, and hand reveal.

Turn is awkward already: V2 represents a weirdly played 2p+, perhaps the single combo of 75cc; V1 an overpair or a FD, but all the premium combos of FD are blocked.

OTR, with only ~500 behind, if V2 had a boat, he would "have to" shove, because almost any flush would "have to" call. So, when V2 checks, I put him on JT or (maybe) 75cc.
V1's action is pure value, as has been pointed out, so my decision is between fold and call.
I really had a hard time ranging V1 here: as said, all the good flushes are blocked, and if he has an overpair, this river is one of the worst cards in the deck for him, so would he really bet that big?

Eventually, I talked myself into calling, because "wtf, I have a K-high flush", V2 quickly folded and V1 tabled A8cc for the nut flush.

So, my read preflop was completely off and imo this hand confirms that one should beware of "reads" based on a handful of hours of play and, especially preflop, play as theoretically correct as possible, until we have some really solid info.
By trusting "vibes" and the like, we mostly just give randomness one more chance to fool us.

By the way, I doubt that a 3bet pre would have made V1 fold, so I would have probably lost a big pot anyway, but that's another story.

I would probably 3b this hand pre - has great playability, you'll have position,etc. Flop looks fine - turn we call. River is really odd - I don't really see how anyone has a full house, if V1 had a nut flush most of those combos bet the flop. I could see v1 having a lot of smaller flushes - could he have like A9cc I guess, but very few Ax flushes that check/call the flop (if any). Would definitely call.

Grunch:

PRE - I understand flatting when the PFR has a limp range. I'm not sure how good it is from the HJ, but I guess it's okay if we think we're never getting squeezed. I'd like it better if we didn't have a fish behind us, who is likely to come along.

FLOP - I like betting our OESFD. Not sure about the size in a four-way pot. I think we might want to go a tad smaller, like 1/3 pot, or maybe even less. Betting more than 40 here seems excessive.

TURN - WTF is V2 doing?

I don't know what to think about V2 donking for 2/3 pot first to act and multi-way, or V1 flatting.

My guess is V2 either made 2P with 64 or a set with 66, or he flopped something good and this is a delayed check-raise donk, which is a weird / fishy play on paper, but seems to work well enough, often enough, when no one knows what to make of it.

It would be pretty weird for him to do this with air, or somehow find his way here and do this with a hand like 75cc or 53cc, but I guess it's possible. Maybe he takes this line because he thinks he's block-betting here, to prevent us from bombing it if action checks to us.

So, I think 2/3 of the time or more, this is a turned 2P+ or a slow-play-now-fast-play, and 1/3 of the time or less, he picked up a combo draw. Whatever it is, I don't see much point in raising, unless we think he'll fold bottom 2P.

Then again...V1 called. What the hell does he have? Whatever it is, it seems like he's either sand-bagging something, or he's on a draw. So, maybe we could raise here, but it would be sick to raise and get 3B, when our hand has so much equity still. We wouldn't love it if we raise and either player calls.

Yeah, I don't know what's going on here, so I probably just grit my teeth, flick in the call, and pray for a good river card.

RIVER - So, this is a weird spot. He's repping...boats, or the nut flush?

All the hand-reading logic points to a slow-played set that rivered a boat, or the NFD that got there. I think we can probably just fold.

MAYBE he gets here and does this with 98cc or even 87cc, but that's a pretty ambitious river bet when he doesn't know where the top 3 clubs are. It's hard to credit him with opening those hands from EP when he has a limping range, and also donking the river with those hands, if he's truly passive.

JJ and TT are much more likely to be an EP open for him than 98s or 87s. He might also be RFI'ing some A9s or Ace-wheel suited.

Okay, just read the reveal...

I wouldn't have expected A8s. A9s, sure. Some Ace-wheel suited combos, yeah, at some frequency, especially A5s or A4s if our read is that the guy isn't completely clueless. If he's RFI'ing from EP with A8s, I think we need to adjust the read to say he may be opening up his RFI range a bit.

My hand-reading is based on the observation that fish simply cannot fold the NFD before the river.

And if they flop top set with JJ or TT, even on a fairly wet and connected board, they don't like to fast-play when it's multi-way. They can't stand the thought of c-betting top or middle set multi-way and everyone folding. They expect someone to do the betting for them when the board is so wet and dynamic.

V1's call of V2's turn donk, next to act, and that 2/3 river bet sizing when V2 checks screams thick value praying for a call.

But seriously, WTF was V2 doing here? I'd want to chase that guy down for some sort of explanation.