The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition
Bad beats are part of the game. I understand that. But after absorbing more than my fair share on Poker Stars I switched
Using it to generate a seed does not mean it generates the cards using hardware. That part is all software. And most people realize, when referring to the poker RNGs, they are talking about the RNG that generates the cards. But what a surprise another distraction. But I see you still can't discredit the math and probability.
LOLOL you just got caught lying red handed but you keep ignoring all the facts and believing a fairy tale. At least Johnmir has the balls to admit he's wrong.
I actually found some proof that you were wrong, something you have never succeeded in, and you call it a distraction. A distraction from what?? From your blatant lies?? You brought the whole PRNG discussion up, I've just looked up the facts and prove you are making stories up. The hardware rng does play the role in card distribution, what do you think it does if its not, just being there looking pretty?? The facts say but also chatgpt...
And you were such a firm believer in chatgpt, is that suddenly all gone now that even chatgpt is telling you your wrong about everything?? Must be a tough life without a spine.
The Optimizer Investments Limited has requested BMM to evaluate the random number generator (RNG) used in the Poker RNG for operation in Online Gaming. 3. DESCRIPTION OF RNG: The Poker RNG makes use of the Random.js library for node.js. Specifically, it uses the “nodeCrypto” engine, which is a wrapper for the node.js crypto.randomBytes call. This in turn draws byte
Thanks for that quote because you are proving yourself wrong again..
They test the openSSL RNG:
"The Poker RNG makes use of the Random.js library for node.js. Specifically, it uses the “nodeCrypto” engine, which
is a wrapper for the node.js crypto.randomBytes call. This in turn draws bytes from the OpenSSL default RNG,"
This openSSL RNG does the following:
"The OpenSSL RNG seeds itself with entropy drawn from the system, which in turn uses numerous low-level
hardware and software sources of entropy."[b]
So when they test the openSSL RNG they test "hardware and software sources of entropy"
It couldnt say anymore clearer that the hardware is part of the test. They bloody test the openssl rng which uses "[b]numerous low-level
hardware and software sources of entropy.. How is it humanly possible not to read that correctly?
There is a distinction between hardware and software because its 2 different things. But nowhere, absolutely nowhere, does it say "we've only tested the software component" that ridiculous. They test the outcome of the RNG which is comprised of both hardware and software sources of entropy. The outcome was a fair and unpredictable distribution of cards.
You just made up another lie with the "they don't test the Seed (hardware) RNG" part. And its all very bad lies as well. Extremely easy to dispute. You pretty much provided the evidence against your lies yourself!! Which is the first time ITT that you actually provided some evidence, so good job on that🙂
LOLOL you just got caught lying red handed but you keep ignoring all the facts and believing a fairy tale. At least Johnmir has the balls to admit he's wrong.I actually found some proof that you were wrong, something you have never succeeded in, and you call it a distraction. A distraction from what?? From your blatant lies?? You brought the whole PRNG discussion up, I've just
Sorry bud it says it clearly. This is what they test and this is all software
3.
DESCRIPTION OF RNG:
The Poker RNG makes use of the Random.js library for node.js. Specifically, it uses the “nodeCrypto” engine, which
is a wrapper for the node.js crypto.randomBytes call. This in turn draws bytes from the OpenSSL default RNG,
which is a NIST SP 800-90A Rev. 1 compliant cryptographically secure RNG, using AES-256 in CTR-DRBG mode.
The hardware and software sources of entropy is what seeds the OpenSSL default RNG. and nowhere do they say they test the hardware and software sources of entropy. They say they tested the Poker RNG, PERIOD.
3.1.1 Seeding
The OpenSSL RNG seeds itself with entropy drawn from the system, which in turn uses numerous low-level
hardware and software sources of entropy.
[QUOTE=TeflonDawg;59040719]What sites are not
I see Slugant conveniently ignored the post of why Pokerstars said its technically impossible to have a deck that wasnt random. A huge lie. Phil Galfond confirmed this.
Ive had many, many sites tell me that it would not benefit the site financially to not have a random deck.
Considering it would maximise rake to have a deck that changes the lead 2/3 times during hands and also to help poor calling stations remain within financial limits (maintaining site traffic), that is another huge lie.
Sites will tell you themselves the major factor in a successful site is site traffic. As the only way they money is in rake and tournament fees. Their words.
So clearly there is a big opportunity to maximise their profit by having a PlayStation deck, as the regulations are blatantly not up to scratch.
There is no risk, as regulation as it stands means there is no-one prepared to look further into decks. Even if a player had concrete proof they were not fair, no-one with regards to regulation has the resources/interest to even look at it.
What you are believing in is that companies that lie (as above) and have numerous million pound fines for breaching rules in advertising and player financial limits, would not maximise profits using decks to their advantage….. although they could do.
Massive naivety.
[QUOTE=TeflonDawg;59040719]What sites are not I see Slugant conveniently ignored the post of why Pokerstars said its technically impossible to have a deck that wasnt random. A huge lie. Phil Galfond confirmed this.Ive had many, many sites tell me that it would not benefit the site financially to not have a random deck.Considering it would maximise rake to have a deck that chang
I'll take "Things rigturds tell themselves to justify their huge losses in Poker" for 200, Alex!
And to prove my pointThe Optimizer Investments Limited has requested BMM to evaluate the random number generator (RNG) used in the Poker RNG for operation in Online Gaming. 3. DESCRIPTION OF RNG: The Poker RNG makes use of the Random.js library for node.js. Specifically, it uses the “nodeCrypto” engine, which is a wrapper for the node.js crypto.randomBytes call. This in turn d
"But but but, what about that other thing?!"
The poker rng consist of both a hardware (seed) and software component.
From your trusted friends at chatgpt:
"In the context of random number generation, a seed is a starting value used to initialize a pseudorandom number generator (PRNG). Essentially, it's a number that determines the sequence of "random" numbers produced by the RNG. If you use the same seed, you'll get the same sequence of random numbers every time. "
The whole sequence start off from a hardware rng point of view (totally randomness)
The RNG check is done over millions of hands (they dont just stare at the pc you know). These hands are the outcome of the rng which started (seed) with the hardware rng. The outcome was a fair and unpredictable dealing. I know you will never admit that you are clearly wrong but for everyone else its easy to see. Even for Johnmir.
@ the waddy:
So you have numerous poker sites telling you it would benefit them to have a rigged rng?
Wow, for sites that are clever enough to make an unproveable rigged rng they are not very wise at not telling their secrets huh?
The lies are just getting worse and worse. Pokersites mailing you that rigged the rng is benefiting them... of course. What made you ever think this would be a believeable story?
The poker rng consist of both a hardware (seed) and software component.From your trusted friends at chatgpt:"In the context of random number generation, a seed is a starting value used to initialize a pseudorandom number generator (PRNG). Essentially, it's a number that determines the sequence of "random" numbers produced by the RNG. If you use the same seed, you'll get the sam
As usual you can't admit when have been proven wrong.
Section 1: they state what they are evaluating.
1. PURPOSE:
The Optimizer Investments Limited has requested BMM to evaluate the random number generator (RNG) used in
the Poker RNG for operation in Online Gaming.
Section 3: they describe what the RNG is. The title of the section is actually called DESCRIPTION OF RNG. They don't mention anything about the seeding source and everything described is software. In fact they specifically call it the Poker RNG and is what they state they are evaluation in section 1.
3. DESCRIPTION OF RNG:
The Poker RNG makes use of the Random.js library for node.js. Specifically, it uses the “nodeCrypto” engine, which
is a wrapper for the node.js crypto.randomBytes call. This in turn draws bytes from the OpenSSL default RNG,
which is a NIST SP 800-90A Rev. 1 compliant cryptographically secure RNG, using AES-256 in CTR-DRBG mode.
Then in section 3.1.1 they describe how the OpenSSL RNG seeds itself and they never call the seeding sources an RNG (probably for good reason). In addition they never state they evaluated or tested the seeding sources, the hardware and software sources of entropy.
3.1.1 Seeding
The OpenSSL RNG seeds itself with entropy drawn from the system, which in turn uses numerous low-level
hardware and software sources of entropy.
All this was extracted from the document you posted. You can whine all you want and claim I am lying but everything referenced is from the document you posted not from something I posted. The fact is they specifically describe the Poker RNG and specifically state they tested the Poker RNG. They never say they tested the hardware and software sources of entropy and they never call the hardware and software sources of entropy an RNG. And because your own document proves you wrong you are trying to inflate what they stated because it doesn't actually say what you so desperately want.
The poker rng consist of both a hardware (seed) and software component.From your trusted friends at chatgpt:"In the context of random number generation, a seed is a starting value used to initialize a pseudorandom number generator (PRNG). Essentially, it's a number that determines the sequence of "random" numbers produced by the RNG. If you use the same seed, you'll get the sam
I think maybe your English is not that good. It says ‘they would not benefit from a deck that wasn’t random’….
Maybe it’s a deflection tactic….
Amazing im not sure if you are actually this stupid or you are not taking your meds anymore.
The idea that "the poker rng" is a seperate entity than the hardware rng is nowhere to be read, you make it up. What do you think they do? They have a software rng for the shuffling of cards and the hardware rng to allot who gets the next round of coffee? They go hand-in-hand, its there to be read but you have such a plate for your head you cant even read properly anymore. Also what do you think BMM test? Do you think they look at some lines of code and say "yea that seems about right".. No! They check the outcomes of millions and millions of dealt hands to find any discrepancies. And they didnt find any. Therefore the RNG is to be trusted.
BMM checks the poker RNG > The poker RNG draws bytes from OpenSSL > The OpenSSL RNG seeds itself with entropy drawn from the system > which in turn uses numerous low-level hardware and software sources of entropy.
Therefore BMM is clearly checking the hardware rng because it is part of the poker rng. The poker rng encompasses both software & hardware. I know you will refuse to get this part but you and anybody can read it exactly as it says.
@ thewaddy, So pokersites say to you they will not benefit from a rigged deck and you see it as proof that they do rig it?? solid evidence once again🙂
It might be profitable short-term but never long-term. A fair and trusted pokersite will get you the volume and volume gets in the rake, which is where the profits are.
I do get very clearly why most of the riggies are microstakes losers and other might be slight winners. Getting good at something means fixing leaks. It means recognizing your own mistake and working on it to do better in the future.
But if you are like amazing and every fact in front of you tells you you're wrong but you still wont see it. No progress would ever come of it. You will never allot your losses to your bad play, it has to be that you're getting screwed over. Because you see yourself somehow incapable of making a mistake. While in fact, its all you actually do. What you're incapable of is admitting you've made a mistake.
I see Slugant conveniently ignored the post of why Pokerstars said its technically impossible to have a deck that wasnt random. A huge lie. Phil Galfond confirmed this.Ive had many, many sites tell me that it would not benefit the site financially to not have a random deck.Considering it would maximise rake to have a deck that changes the lead 2/3 time
Unless you are saying they are all rigged, it sounds like you didn't answer the question
How do we parse out and justify that ClubWPTGold does not have an RNG certification, will not provide any proof of one, or their dealing process.
The entire industry is just blindly accepting this cause it says WPT and they are throwing a lot of promotion dollars at marketing. WPT does not even run or own ClubWPTGold - an offshore company out of Cypress licenses the brand and runs the software.
What are all the defenders of fair online poker sites thoughts on the currently most publicly US facing platform demonstrably refusing to show proof of any RNG let alone certification.
?
How do we parse out and justify that ClubWPTGold does not have an RNG certification, will not provide any proof of one, or their dealing process. The entire industry is just blindly accepting this cause it says WPT and they are throwing a lot of promotion dollars at marketing. WPT does not even run or own ClubWPTGold - an offshore company out of Cypress licenses the brand and r
Well, according to people who think RNG certifications are bullocks it doesnt matter because it wont mean anything.
I dont play there because I would feel less comfortable playing a site with no certification than all the other majors one that do have one. Even in the US, you could choose enough other sites that do have a certification and provide it to the public. So its not "the entire industry" that blindy accepting an uncertified website, its just the players that regardless of certification decide to play there. Which I would argue against just to have more peace of mind, but its everyone's own choice/risk to play there.
Unless you are saying they are all rigged, it sounds like you didn't answer the question
They all followed suit after Black Friday. Due to the huge loss of players, they could simply not survive if they had a deck that mirrored the real game.
A lot of sites had traffic of around 500 players at any given time. To have 20 or so easily beating the minute bank of players left, would result in closure.
Faced with closure or helping the poorer players stay in the game, there was zero risk to anyone exposing this. The knowledge that there was no-one testing for a rigged deck at the time ….And rather incredibly that still being the case… There is no risk in doing what they can to retain site traffic.
However, all sites have had huge fines for being exposed for things they know are being checked and show their greedy nature over and over again.
Yet still, some believe what they are seeing, despite the maths being impossible and the industryÂ’s appalling reputation for all manner of attempts of illegally making money out of vulnerable people.
One or two people still trust in these people to run fair games, despite the numerous past convictions and seeing daily highly unlikely outcomes that you would see once in a lifetime with a real deck.
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They all followed suit after Black Friday. Due to the huge loss of players, they could simply not survive if they had a deck that mirrored the real game.A lot of sites had traffic of around 500 players at any given time. To have 20 or so easily beating the minute bank of players left, would result in closure.Faced with closure or helping the poorer players stay in the game, the
To be clear, you're saying all sites, post Black Friday, are rigged?
However, all sites have had huge fines for being exposed for things they know are being checked and show their greedy nature over and over again.
What exactly are you talking about here? What sites are accruing "huge fines" and what exactly are they being fined for?
That all makes for a proper poker themed sci-fi thriller, not in the least because its all fiction. You wrote it, have zero evidence backing it up and in fact most statements can easily be debunked.
So Pre-black friday all sites were fair but the Americans are forced to leave and every site pulls the rigswitch to on. Cool story, but what does that mean for sites who got big after black friday? GG for instance, why did they go so big? And why did other sites who rig their rng fall in numbers not just after black friday but in general? It cant be due to the poker hype not being as strong as in the Moneymaker era right? That would be too logical..
You say nobody tested for rigged decks back then and that that is still the case. Both are incorrect and you've seen it countless times.
Pokersites have been fined when breaking the rules, never has there been a rigged deck fine. The fact they want to make money (in your words "greed") does not equal a rigged deck. Every business is trying to make money (all those greedy people grrrr), that does not equal that they all deliver a rigged product. Ikea does not provide collapsing furniture as part of their genius business plan.
You might be one of those vulnerable players who lost and is angry with poker. The latter being rather obvious. And you point your finger at the poker sites for making you and others victims of their greeds like the crazy old hobo is mad at John D Rockefeller for ruining his life. Or you can take some responsibility for once and acknowledge that the fact that others succeed in poker and you dont is because they are very likely more talented and work other. They also spend their time getting better at the game instead of making up a fictional puppet show where they are the lone good guy and all the others are evil and greedy con men.
You also one or two people here still trust the sites. You did see that in this thread the majority has trust right? And thats in the poker is rigged thread! Riggies like yourself are in the minority. And in the group of skilled and winning players they are virtually non-existent.
The past convictions you mentioned have never ever been about a rigged game. But you just keep on being you and seeing yourself as the victim. You and a few others here seem to harbour a lot of resentment or even hatred towards the game of online poker. Well, its certainly not for everybody. But the good news is, you can just quit. You dont need to be part of it. You can go do something you actually like. If you however feel the need to remain part of it to expose the deck-riggin that has been going on since black-friday, dont just tell tales, show us the proof. Black friday happened 14 years ago, its not like you haven't had any time to uncover some evidence.
There will always be a minotiry of digruntled players who fury at online poker and need to believe that its the riggedness why they are not successful.
The majority, however, will enjoy this beautiful game and some of those will even make a good living off it.
Amazing im not sure if you are actually this stupid or you are not taking your meds anymore.The idea that "the poker rng" is a seperate entity than the hardware rng is nowhere to be read, you make it up. What do you think they do? They have a software rng for the shuffling of cards and the hardware rng to allot who gets the next round of coffee? They go hand-in-hand, its there
What's amazing is that you still can't reference any section in the document you posted where it says what you say it says and now are clearly lying because again you have been exposed to be the know nothing that you truly are.
As they specifically state they tested the Poker RNG which they define as the “nodeCrypto” engine, which is a wrapper for the node.js crypto.randomBytes call. This in turn draws bytes from the OpenSSL default RNG. This is all software
Yeah I'll trust ChatGPT over something you say ever time.
That all makes for a proper poker themed sci-fi thriller, not in the least because its all fiction. You wrote it, have zero evidence backing it up and in fact most statements can easily be debunked.So Pre-black friday all sites were fair but the Americans are forced to leave and every site pulls the rigswitch to on. Cool story, but what does that mean for sites who got big afte
Phil Galfond says possible, all the big sites say it’s technically impossible… both their words…. Maybe just ignore the fact the big sites are lying in their defence of the deck and just keep repeating about no sites being fined for decks being rigged…
That we have all established is not being possible to prove as there is no way of doing it.
No point in repeating this to cover up new questions!
Why are they lying…. There is only 2 things they ever say in defence… it’s technically impossible (it isn’t, Galfond has a site and confirms it isn’t) and that they wouldn’t financially benefit (they would, rake would be at the max more often and they retain poor player traffic).
To defend against the fact to half the player base who think it’s BS, by using two standard lies, is this something that would make their trustworthiness better or worse?
Just an answer without proof of data would be good, it’s not relevant to the question….
To be clear, you're saying all sites, post Black Friday, are rigged?
What exactly are you talking about here? What sites are accruing "huge fines" and what exactly are they being fined for?
Subscribe to The Gambling Comissions monthly newsletter…. This is a very regular thing…. It’s a debate to whether sites would consider rigging decks to their own advantage and not consider the customer … this is how they go about their business …. a choice to continue to trust them when you are seeing avalanches of highly improbable odds is obviously yours….
What's amazing is that you still can't reference any section in the document you posted where it says what you say it says and now are clearly lying because again you have been exposed to be the know nothing that you truly are. As they specifically state they tested the Poker RNG which they define as the “nodeCrypto” engine, which is a wrapper for the node.js crypto.randomByt
But I quoted chatGPT to prove you wrong many times and you ignore it. You read more selectively than anybody else.
Even now, you say its all software but you also quote that the "rng draws bytes from the openssl rng."
I have referenced this section many times, you say i havent but thats because theres a plate in your head where your eyesight should be:
"The OpenSSL RNG seeds itself with entropy drawn from the system > which in turn uses numerous low-level hardware and software sources of entropy."
How can you still claim its all software when the openssl rng used seeds itself with HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE SOURCES OF ENTROPY
Its start off from a hardware point but you refuse to read it somehow. If you play poker as well as you read I understand why you are losing at the micros.
Phil Galfond says possible, all the big sites say it’s technically impossible… both their words…. Maybe just ignore the fact the big sites are lying in their defence of the deck and just keep repeating about no sites being fined for decks being rigged…That we have all established is not being possible to prove as there is no way of doing it.No point in r
Just because something is possible doesnt mean it happens. Your local grocery could be serving you poison. But they likely dont
I havent seen any site reference that its technically impossible. You say they said that, we havent seen it. I would argue it is possible but it is in nobody's interest. I would also argue its hard to keep something like that a secret. If there was secret rigging going on since black friday and nothing has been proven yet the people doing the research are really falling short.
I disagree with you on the "impossible to prove" stance. If they are manipulating a rng into making the worst players win more and generate more big hands so they can earn more rake this could be proven with datamined hands, and there are tens of millions of them. You can import them and find consistent outliers that variance cannot explain. You need a large sample and you definitely need some free time, so the question is not if it can be proven the question is who is willing to do the work?
I also disagree on the "they would financially benefit, rake would be at the max more often and they retain poor player traffic" stance.
While the weaker players are very important for the entire poker ecology its the regs that pay the rake. They grind out the hours, multitable, start tables etc. The poor players dont play that much volume and they generally also play quite low stakes. If you make regs breakeven on your rigged site while they win on a fair site they will eventually leave. Regs are in it to make money so they why would they choose a site that favors weaker player over them?
I take Galfond serious as a poker player and human being. And I agree with him that it would be very difficult but possible to rig a deck.
But I have doubts that he claimed it would financially benefit the site. Is that something you can quote him on or is this your view?
Its kinda strange though that you show such hatred for poker sites with their greed and urge to make money but you do quote Galfond a lot who ran a poker site and runs a coaching site. And I dont think he does it for free either. He too tries to make some money off it that greedy evil Phil:p
