GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Pippen can't take over, so stop saying "IF pippen could take over"... He can't.. That's the point... And if MJ is the only guy that can take over, than it's a 1-man team.. He's the only guy that could win multiple chips this way (being the only guy on his team that could take over, aka 1-man team).And Pippen couldn't even reach peak Horry or Iguodala caliber, or get within 10 p
So a guy that leads his entire team in points , assist rebound and steal while being the best defender on his team, in the play off the only place it matters (?), is not the definition of taking over ?
SMH …
Again, no one could take over while playing with mj and the only year pippen in his prime played without mj , he did ….
And yet u keep spamming regular season stats to denigrate or praise players and teams all the time ….
But I’m glad you said so, we can finally put to rest the nonsense of Larry Hughes equivalent of better then Pippen .
I used playoff stats with Hughes - MJ won with Hughes-caliber:
Playoffs
05' HUGHES......... 16.6 PER... 0.083 WS/48... 1.3 OBPM'... -0.2 DBPM... 21/7/4 and 2.0 spg... 1st Team Defense
93' PIPPEN........... 16.9 PER... 0.083 WS/48... 1.1 OBPM..... 0.8 DBPM... 20/7/6 and 2.2 spg... 1st Team Defense
So mj want that much important to the team and want the huge reason why bull was so great ?I mean if a bad team can be lead by a non franchise players to a 7 game CF and win 55 win games .The league during my stance in the 90s was awfully weak ….and mj didn’t grief much more to the table .Mj overrated …U don’t seem to understand you can’t face it b
2nd Round loser and barely .500 in 95' without MJ
Goat team with MJ (twice)
That's the goat impact
FG - Yes or no question. Do you believe that Hughes is as good as Pippen?
Pippen always had horrible efficiency - he was a historic bricklayer/lane-clogger that allowed opponents to sag off and pack the paint
Pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs - that's horrible efficiency.. He also averaged 19.0 on 42% for his Finals career - that's horrible efficiency... He shot 50% true shooting for the 93' run - that's horrible efficiency.. He was below league-average true shooting for his entire playoff career except 89' or 01-03' (no burden years), or 91' (his only viable run).
That isn’t the point at all !
Now u backing off that 1 or 2 game peak doesn’t mean anything now !!????
Ha yes now we cannnot generalize your stupid taking point because it goes against a player you like .
Impossible to have any decent talk with someone saying 2 = 2 but sometime it’s 3 and other times it’s fish …
Pippen never played above a prime Shawn Marion or Iguodala level.
Show me where he did....
Otherwise, Jordan won 2 three-peats with a Shawn Marion level player
Every other top 75 player has examples of dominance and "taking over", except Pippen.
Ultimately, "franchise player" status is reserved for dominant producers like Love, KAT, or AD, and their obvious dominance means that they don't need playoff success to make All-NBA...
Otoh, secondary producers like Klay or Pippen needed titles to make All-NBA, similar to Manu, Parker, Pau, Dumars or Worthy - they needed winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA.. And no one got more winning spotlight than Pippen - he never played above a Larry Nance or Iguodala caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade - he's simply the most overrated player ever.
The only reason you think Pippen is so good is because of 6 rings.
Otherwise, there are no examples of him playing above a Shawn Marion level.
So your assessment of otherwise secondary producers is influenced by the winning spotlight.
The Shawn Marion level that Pippen was on is a level that peak Larry Hughes was on when he was a coveted free agent that Lebron recruited... All the numbers and actual performance shows that Pippen was on the level of a peak Larry Hughes/Horry/Marion/Iguodala/Nance.. That's Pippen's caliber of play, and that's inside a coddling system that he grew up in.. Outside the system, Pippen is worse than Jeff Green and couldn't average 15 ppg.. All of this is historical record.
Ultimately, "franchise player" status is reserved for dominant producers like Love, KAT, or AD, and their dominance means they don't need playoff success to make All-NBA...
Otoh, secondary producers like Klay or Pippen needed titles to make All-NBA, similar to Manu, Parker, Pau, Dumars or Worthy - they needed winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA.. And no one got more winning spotlight than Pippen - he never played above a Larry Nance or Iguodala caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade - he's simply the most overrated player ever
The only reason you think Pippen is so good is because of 6 rings.Otherwise, there are no examples of him playing above a Shawn Marion level.So your assessment of otherwise secondary producers is influenced by the winning spotlight.The Shawn Marion level that Pippen was on is a level that peak Larry Hughes was on when he was a coveted free agent that Lebron recruited... All the
FG - Yes or no question. Do you believe that Hughes is as good as Pippen?
I used playoff stats with Hughes - MJ won with Hughes-caliber:
Playoffs
05' HUGHES......... 16.6 PER... 0.083 WS/48... 1.3 OBPM'... -0.2 DBPM... 21/7/4 and 2.0 spg... 1st Team Defense
93' PIPPEN........... 16.9 PER... 0.083 WS/48... 1.1 OBPM..... 0.8 DBPM... 20/7/6 and 2.2 spg... 1st Team Defense
What does thinh have to do with pippen vs Hughes being better or not ?
And u use 1 peak playoffs Hughes vs non peak pippen playoffs ? Why ?
Worst pippen has many similar playoffs run while hughes has 1 an Ethernet is totally abysmal???’
Is one year run playoffs is worth an entire career ?
Moreover Hughes in the « awesome » year u describe was .379% FG ???
Even worst brick layer then Russell ?
Taking 18shot a game to reach 20ppg lol…
Can u imagine Hughes playing with MJ and taking so many shot and miss lol?
It would never happen !
2nd Round loser and barely .500 in 95' without MJ
Goat team with MJ (twice)
That's the goat impact
Yes we know .
That has anything to do with what we talking about ….
Even with a non peak mj , bulls can’t win .
Yet wi th our MJ pippen reach conference final 7th game ..oops .
Thx for clearing that out !
Stop replying to this thread.
Let fallguy post by himself.
Pippen is a little worse than Shawn Marion or Larry Nance, and he's also worse than Hughes if we're talking about pure basketball, aka no "system-ball" or protected/insulated apprenticeship under the GOAT... Without MJ's elevation and outside the triangle, Pippen wasn't even as good as Jeff Green, let alone Larry Hughes.. Only the system and MJ's elevation allowed Pippen to exceed Hughes' best years, otherwise he was much worse.
Pippen is a little worse than Shawn Marion or Larry Nance, and he's also worse than Hughes if we're talking about pure basketball, aka no "system-ball" or protected/insulated apprenticeship under the GOAT... Without MJ's elevation and outside the triangle, Pippen wasn't even as good as Jeff Green, let alone Larry Hughes.. Only the system and MJ's elevation allowed Pippen to exc
Why a « system » can only elevated pippen but not other players like Duncan , green , etc . ?
Ps: Hughes best scoring years in « non system » basketball was still horrible offensive and much less efficient then pippen while still being a worst defender .
Hughes was just taking a lot of shots missing atrociously….
2000 gsw 22ppg but shooting 8/21 lol
2005 was 20ppg shooting 7/17 .
Just terrible .
For a guy that complain about bricklayer ….
As for the rest is just conjuncture , like all those LeBron slurppers except it’s for pippen for yourself .
Just stick to facts .
What if means nothing .
Why a « system » can only elevated pippen but not other players like Duncan , green , etc . ?
The triangle is a trash offense that didn't get role players that many open looks, since it required the most top-heavy scoring distribution in history - the biggest carry-jobs in history - that's why it never won until the GOAT came along (or his clone Kobe).
Furthermore, winning carry-jobs require good brand of ball, so the carry-jobs that the triangle requires must be achieved with ball movement, and therefore require goat scoring from the off-guard position (SG).
Accordingly, for Duncan to win with the triangle, he would require the same GOAT scoring from Ginobili that Pau or Shaq required from Kobe - Shaq had one great season in 2000, but Kobe led the Lakers in scoring for the 2001 and 2002 Western Conference Playoffs - Duncan would require this caliber as well, but there's only 1 Kobe (or Jordan).
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LeStiffArm needed all-star spacing to win 21 more games and 66 wins in 2009, so Pippen's bricks wins maybe 45 (if Mo's spacing was replaced by Pippen's bricks).
Pippen told Rachel Nichols that he can't provide the spacing that certain players need and compared himself to a bad Westbrick fit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_...
So Pippen could never provide the spacing to open up Lebron's stiff-arm game and win 66 games.. Therefore, Mo was a better teammate for Lebron than Pippen would be... Carry on.
It's also easy to forget that Antawn Jamison was a better scorer than Pippen, so it's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen at 3rd option, while having better team defenses too.
Ultimately, Mo and AD turned around fledgling teams into the league favorite.. That's the historical record
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Historical Record:
For Lebron to reach MVP-caliber and win 60 games in 2013 or 2009, he needed all-star spacers like Ray Allen or Mo Williams to open things up for his stiff-arm game.
Lebron's drive-heavy game and need for spacing is a weakness compared to mid-range kings that can shoot over packed paints (don't need spacing) like MJ, Kobe and SGA.
Other weaknesses of Lebron are offensive rebounding, FT's, turnovers, mid-range, clutch efficiency, off-ball, low assist teams/weak ball movement - he lowers teammates' assists by turning them into spot-up shooter (increasing their assisted rates).
Kobe can't even make the Top 10.
Pippen @ 28.
Hughes must have been 101.
.
The stats below confirm that Jordan's 6 rings are equal or bigger carry-jobs then 94' Hakeem or 11' Dirk:
PLAYOFFS
94' Hakeem........ 27.7 PER.... 8.5 BPM... 2.6 VORP... 0.208 WS/48... 28.9 ppg
94' Horry'............ 16.7 PER.... 5.0 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.152 WS/48... 11.7 ppg
GAP.......................... 11.0.............3.5............... 1.2............ 0.056............ 17.2
93' Jordan'........... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen........... 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP.......................... 13.2............ 9.6............... 2.1............. 0.187............ 15.0
11' Dirk'................ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry............... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP........................... 4.9...............1.1.............. 0.5.............. 0.031........... 10.2
92' Jordan''........... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen............ 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP............................ 7.1............. 3.3.............. 0.8.............. 0.048............ 15.0
91' Jordan'............ 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen............ 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP.......................... 10.0............. 8.1.............. 1.4............... 0.136............. 9.5
96' Jordan'............ 26.7 PER... 10.7 BPM... 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen............ 19.4 PER..... 7.8 BPM... 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP............................. 7.3............. 2.9.............. 0.6.............. 0.122........... 13.8
97' Jordan'............. 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen............. 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP............................. 9.1............. 4.8.............. 1.0.............. 0.090.......,... 11.9
98' Jordan'............. 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen............. 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP............................. 8.7............. 3.4............... 0.8.............. 0.095.......... 16.4
Every "duo" in history was close statistically except MJ/Pippen, who weren't any more of a "duo" than Hakeem/Horry or Dirk/Terry:
Accordingly the statistical record confirms that Pippen's burden or production rates weren't all-time caliber, and therefore his performance was inflated by the winning spotlight to all-time status and media accolade
Kobe can't even make the Top 10.Pippen @ 28.Hughes must have been 101.
Imagine if Shawn Marion was #28 all-time because he was carried to 6 chips.. So Pippen is the most overrated player ever.
The stats confirm that Pippen was carried to titles more than Jason Terry in 2011 or 94' Horry (see previous post)..
Since Pippen was a Marion/Iguodala caliber that was simply carried to chips, it's impossible that he's in the top 100.. If the Shawn Marion or Iguodala player type isn't top 100, then Pippen isn't either - the Marion/Pippen/Iguodala player type is beneath the KG/AD/Giannis player type... And ring count has never mattered for secondary players, aka "Horry rings", so Pippen is treated with a double standard and ridiculously overrated.
Secondly, Magic and Kareem can't both be top 5, otherwise they would have at least 10 rings instead of a shaky 5-4 Finals record - it's a shaky 5-4 because it could easily be 4-5 if not for a bad call on Laimbeer in Game 7.. So one of them must be booted out of the top 5, and it should obviously be the ball-dominator..
Otoh, my rankings exclude player-types who can't produce great teams as the leading scorer - this is why ball-dominators are outside of my top 10... i.e since the play-by-play era began, the leading scorers for the 4 dynasties and 8 dominant title runs were all bigs or jumpshooters, and never primary ballhandlers.. Since bigs or jumpshooters produce the best teams, the top 10 is a subjective mix of the best bigs and jumpshooters ever, i.e. MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Kobe, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic..
The only exception to my rankings requiring leading scorers is Bill Russell, but he played 2-pointer basketball, which lacked spacing and therefore allowed defense to win - MVP's could be defenders in 2-pointer basketball and didn't need to be offensive players like the MVP's in 3-pointer basketball
Kobe can't even make the Top 10.Pippen @ 28.Hughes must have been 101.
To have Kobe below steph is a travesty .
Kobe got Shaq so what , steph got KD shrug .
Get those years out and it’s Kobe a mile in front .
.The stats below confirm that Jordan's 6 rings are equal or bigger carry-jobs then 94' Hakeem or 11' Dirk:
The difference is pippen was there all those years while the others only were able to « excel » once ….
6>1
And yes , wouldn’t be normal the gap playing with mj would be higher because mj is the goat , smh …
U really believe horry and others would have done better under mj ?
They wouldn’t even had the ball …
Why do you hate Kobe so much ?
I don't hate him. Being the 15-18th best player ever is good. It's just he's overrated. Basically won the minimum amount of Championships possible with Shaq. Had a two year run where he was great (hence being top 20 of all time), even if Pau carried him in some series. Then was a high usage underperformer after that.
He's not better than Steph.
The difference is pippen was there all those years while the others only were able to « excel » once ….
Hakeem and Dirk had one-off carry-jobs, while MJ had 6 carry-jobs... Dirk and Hakeem could only produce that level of carry-job once, while MJ did it 6 times...
Furthermore, any bummy 2nd option can get carried and produce crappy stats with massive margins below the 1st option - it doesn't have to be Horry, Terry or Pippen - nearly anyone could play crappy and get carried to titles, but it requires a goat carry-job, which only MJ could do more than once (6 times).
