1/2: Whales are folding TP to my flop raises!!!

Those hands are 2 completely different situations. The first hand you can justify flatting much more so than the second one. First hand you’re heads up vs someone who has shown that they really like their hand and the board isn’t incredibly wet. I’d much rather play the first hand as a call and see if they keep barreling.

The second hand you just have to start putting more money in on the flop, you have a vulnerable hand and need to get value/deny equity.

Also whales don’t fold top pair, whatever V in hand 1 is, they are not a whale.

Hand 1 I flat because there's not much to worry about. We're HU IP vs. wide ranges, I'm happy to chill and see what happens.

Hand 2 I am not happy with the other flop caller and I flat because raising seems like an overplay to me. Turn sucks, if it was any other card and it checked round I would bet here for value. River is a sigh fold, sometimes it happens.

If a donk bet is likely a top pair hand and they're likely folding, that's great. Raise HU with worse or hands where you want to take your equity; call with better. Multiway is more complicated.

They’re playing every hand pre, flatting PFRs with K3o etc, and they’re not a whale? Also - isn’t our hand vulnerable in both instances?

I wouldn't even consider raising the first hand. I would probably flat here even if the 2 is a second diamond or spade, but with a rainbow Flop, I'm 100% flatting. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you get raised on this Flop, your K3 isn't good anymore. This fold doesn't surprise me.

Are they not supposed to fold facing a raise?
Why do you raise so small preflop if they're whales?

This is the least important part of the post, the whale part, I just have a different internal definition. Definitely a player type we want at the table and will try to get involved with, that we agree on.

Yea our hand is vulnerable in both spots, but in the first hand it’s just so much easier to continue as a call vs hand 2. Given that he can have k3o and is willing to bet pot with it, we want to let him continue and hope he thinks he’s good on later streets and piles more in.

I think you have a jumbled understanding of betting a polar range. Your bluff hands should have equity, not any two will do. Looking for cards that can become big hands/draws and play them like aces. If the board favors the range of the aggressor or you hit, you stay aggressive. A few of these mixed in with value should help.

Examples also illustrate a couple of thoughts you should consider….

You let villain play perfectly in the first example. He donked his very weak king and you told him (bet $100) he was no good.

Second hand you had the absolute perfect squeeze opportunity. SB bets $40, limper calls, now you raise to $200. Now, you’re in control with a big hand.

That’s the problem.. if I make it $200, they’ll just fold fold fold.

What? You take all the money when they forfeit their equity…. And that’s a problem?

First hand is whatever ... if you raise you don't need to go this big, but you don't need to raise flop when he bets so much. Also maybe think about ranges and what hands you are raising a pot donk with.

Second hand you can raise now if you think you are in front, there are a lot of bad turns where they can hit two pair or a straight (JT987654). Also even though it's an A turn I think you can bet 40-80, after it checks to you.

Also ... while it's good to get max value per hand I think you are vastly underestimating the value of raising flop and getting folds.

So...these hands are not the same.

The board in Ex 1 is KT2rb. That's pretty dry and static. Why are you raising here? Our hand doesn't need much protection. If he has KT, you're torching. If he has K-crap, he folds, and you're torching. You can have all the KK and TT in your range here. Of course he folds K3 when you raise.

If you want to raise, fine, but try min-clicking it. He'll let you know he has KT when he 3B's you, and he's not folding K3 for another $30. If he slow-plays KT by calling, fine, we can control the size of the pot when we're IP and evaluate street-by-street until we know how he plays his flopped 2P and sets.

The board in Ex 2 is 872rb. That's not super wet, but it's somewhat connected and very top-pair dynamic (meaning, top pair is likely to change on turn or river). There are more draws here than on KT2, as well as more 2P combos that make some sense, and a lot of cards that can come that will make someone 2P.

Our KK is slightly more vulnerable than AA, but besides an A rolling off, we also have to be concerned about any card that might make 2P, a set, or a straight for someone playing SC's or S1G's from 64 through T9. Someone could already have a set or 2P here. It's pretty likely, in a four-way pot.

Regardless, I wouldn't be raising any donks when they take 2/3 to full pot sizing, especially not if we're multi-way. And I'd be leery of over-calling big donks.

Like, the limper in Ex 2 showed 97, which is crazy, but what do you think the SB had? He might have had 87, and we'd still be behind and lose if we raised, even if the limper folds.

In Ex 1, I'd just flat call flop, and see what he does on the turn. If he bets again, I might raise then, if the turn card brings in a BD draw. Otherwise I might just flat again, if he bets big again. If he checks, I'd probably bet small, since it looks like he's giving up with whatever he has.

In Ex 2, I'd probably play it the same way you did, except maybe consider raising larger pre, if the game is splashy and deep-stacked. If a $15 raise gets three calls, awesome, make it $20 next time.

Now, if it's HU and someone donks small, I might raise with value or a bluff, depending on my reads and the board texture. But mostly I just flat call and see what they do on the turn.