Triple barrel blind v blind
I posted this in the mega thread but want to get people's views on it from a "high-level" (meta?) point of view.. what you think of this long term spot.
Game is short handed and soon to break, a maniac that was super deep left and now we're six ways and the game might break soon.
V is a loose passive ABC trying to learn the game. His play is very straightforward post and pre. He understands hand strengths and quite passive pre-, still limp calls a lot and isn't very aggressive overall, he's not a drooler or a station though, he can fold top pair. We both have about 450$.
I just moved seats to be on the left of the only other competent player at the game, a TAG euro who was on my left. To do this I moved into the BB but V just moved seats as well (maybe for the same reason to get on the euro's left, so now V is SB and has to super-post. I straddle BB to come in on this hand. Euro is BTN.
PRE
V super posts,
H straddles 6,
folds to V who limps 6,
I raise Q♦ 8♦ to 25, side question: when I put into a solver blind v blind here, BB's opening range isn't polar or linear, its kind of weird, like 92s is a raise but Q8s is a check? why?
V calls.
FLOP 50 (425 back)
J♦ 9♥ 4♥
V checks
I bet 20
V calls
TURN 90 (405 back)
J♠
V checks
I bet 55
V calls
RIVER 200 (350 back)
5♣
V checks, when he checks here he does so quickly and drops his whole arm down on the table in a big thud, like elbow on the table, hand scratching forehead, and drops his whole arm
I bet 150
7 Replies
For your PF side question: This does sound polarized to me, where BB raising 92s is a ~zero-low EV bluff but Q8s is too middling a hand to raise, especially since the option to check back is available. When you can realize equity for free/cheap in this fashion, the low-EV bluff hands are going to be quite weak ones.
I think you can bluff for a very small size on this river, like 60-80. Flop is dynamic and the runout has bricked all the draws & paired the board. Jx not folding for any size, and 9x will likely get an itch to call, so what's left? Weak pairs like a stubborn pocket pair, 4x, or a flush draw that rivered a 5. Then other bricked draws. It's pretty easy to get the ~23-29% fold equity you need on river by betting 60-80 here.
For your PF side question: This does sound polarized to me, where BB raising 92s is a ~zero-low EV bluff but Q8s is too middling a hand to raise, especially since the option to check back is available. When you can realize equity for free/cheap in this fashion, the low-EV bluff hands are going to be quite weak ones.I think you can bluff for a very small size on this river, like
This
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Good idea on the seat change, imo.
I don't really understand the super post stuff, but I wouldn't straddle.
I would probably just see a flop in position on this guy as he'll probably tell us on the flop if he hit anything and we can steal his blind far more successfully postflop.
I'm ok with a small flop cbet as we have some stuff going on.
By the turn, this is the weird thing about raising preflop versus just seeing a flop. In a limped pot, an ABC guy bets the flop with Jx all day everyday to protect against the draws. But in a raised pot he can easily just tarp check Jx to the raiser, so it is still very possible for him to have Jx in this spot. Anyhoo, I guess I don't hate a bet as obviously there are draws and we can make him fold small pairs.
Overall, I put zero stock in tells. But if I was to put anything into his river checking method, I think this reads strength, no? Anyhoo, ignoring that, I don't mind going for a 3barrel to fold out busted draws that are better hands, but there is absolutely no reason to go this big; heck, a $50 bet into $200 will fold out all A/K high busted draws.
But overall I'm not convinced we need to go this route. And I also think we get looked up a lot as all our draws obviously busted and our line only really makes sense if we have Jx (as everyone always checks back overpears here).
GcluelessNLnoobG
Pre is polar. Q8s doesn't raise because it's between the poles. 92s raises because it's in the bluffing pole.
These ranges are generally A-B-C-D ranges. A range pure raises for value, B range almost purely checks, C range mixes raise for bluffs, D range pure checks. YMMV between different solves, stack sizes, etc, but that's a common composition.
River is a good spot to bluff. My standard is B50 here and just trust that they'll have enough stuff that had no business showing up to the river this way in the first place that we're raking from those hands alone. Not shocked to get called by a bare 4, but that doesn't mean they're calling 67%+.
In fact, this spot is so favorable to bluff, I don't mind checking back this particular combo OTT and stabbing it on the river when you whiff with the understanding that our triple barrel range is super bloated with air (maybe this is what you're referencing by talking about meta). But when you're just single tabling 25-hand-per-hour poker in a rare config like BvB, you can just b/b/b the first time around.
i think if you aren't studied you are going to wreck yourself raising a polar range bvb. i also think you are going to get called on the river lol
dont think river sizing makes much sense either when i look at it
IMO villain has no jack, he checked both of them, thus I’m going to pot the turn and he lets go of the flush draw. Even if he calls the pot size bet, I’m bluffing the river. I’m just putting the bluff into motion a street earlier.
The way you describe this villain trying to play well. If he sees you’re fully committed and he can’t beat 3 jacks, he’s likely to fold. As played, the river reaction you described sounds like a guy that missed, another reason betting 150 should work.
PRE - Short-handed and HU bvb, Q8s seems just barely good enough to raise. But it would seem like it plays well enough that we could also just check our option and play post flop IP.
FLOP - the $20 c-bet seems fine. Making it $25 would also seem fine. Checking back with plans to start our bluff on the turn if he checks again seems reasonable.
TURN - this is sort of starting to get weird now.
Doubtful he'd limp with TT. He's probably not folding 9x. So if we barrel, we're trying to fold out 88 or worse, but it would seem to me that most of those hands are either going to raise pre or fold on the flop.
I think I might just give up on this one and check back, simply because I'm not expecting him to fold out very many hands that called the flop. If he checks to us again on the river, we might take another stab at it.
If we do bet, I'd think we'd want to go smaller, to induce him to raise Jx, or bigger, to get him to fold 9x and his NFD's. I don't think betting 55 into 90 accomplishes much of anything, other than maybe folding out the absolute worst parts of his range, like 22, 33, some AXdd, and not much else.
RIVER - I don't think we need to bet big to fold out the parts of his range that are likely to fold. I'd think all his busted draws and some of his weakest 1P combos would fold if we bet $100.
