Biding your time - How to effectively use your time in Live Poker

Players generally give a pass to players who think a bit longer once upon a while as long as they are pretty fast in general. You sound like a guy who plays generally slower than your opposition. That makes them unhappy as that gives you an unfair advantage and makes them play less hands an hour.

Solution: do your work on these spots away from the table, so you can play faster at the table. At the situation you described what happened is not ideal. You already gave up the information that your hand is close between a bet and a check. See how that is a problem?

Everybody who plays in time games and thinks they’re a winning player is going to be annoyed if you’re taking too long to make decisions. If you acting slowly changes the game from 30 hand/hr to 25 hands/hr you both increase the rake paid per hand and decreased the winning players hourly win rate by ~16%.

Your point about solvers is completely off base. A solver takes longer to solve high SPR spots, from earlier streets, because it’s solving for larger mote complex game trees that include the bigger spots you’re referencing. When you ask the solve for B v BB on XYZ flop, it’s solving for every possible big bet river situation, so of course it takes longer than solving one single big bet river situation. That doesn’t mean the flop decision is more complicated or should take more time.

Taking 30 seconds to decide bet or check on turn after checked through flop is egregious and will absolutely get called out the majority of the time if its repeated

Actually I don't take that long usually. Just to be clear.

I understand that I possibly gave off a timing tell.

I was in a spot where I can lose my stack or lose the opportunity to pick up a 400 dollar pot. (20BB).

You need to act faster.

When other players are commenting on your delays, but not (yet) calling for the clock, they are signaling that you are hurting the game.

In higher stakes, time-raked games, player pools are generally smaller and can become a bit clique'ish. If you are known as someone that is bad for the game you need to take action to reverse that perception. Act faster, be sociable, etc., otherwise you may find that the other players make it a miserable experience for you.

As mentioned above, if you are someone that typically acts quickly, players will give you a lot of leeway when you run into a spot you need to think over. You might even want to announce..."sorry guys, this is a tough spot. I need to think about this one." Just don't abuse it, be considerate of the other people at the table.

1. I was genuinely trying to act faster in the games. I didn't really have that many complaints about acting too slow. But I was also getting having a hard time in a lot of bomb pots.

2. I wasn't making it a habit of taking a lot of time in hands. However, this one time I actually did need some extra time and I was harshly criticized for using about 20 to 30 seconds, less than a minute for sure, in a spot that would be more difficult to play than a typical turn or river spot where most of those regulars take a minute up to several minutes.

3. This guy who was complaining looked like he just got out of bed and hadn't had his coffee or taken a shower yet. Also I think he was running bad. But generally, a good guy. I also think he super super tight post flop ,so for him it's easy to play these spots (and possibly he can't relate that someone could be in a tough spot since he's likely only betting super nutted hands in this scenario).

4. I talked to a floor guy a few days later, and he told me a minute is not a problem. as long as you don't abuse it.

5. A agree that saying, "hey I need a minute here is a good strategy" so people know what's going on. I started to implement this strategy. I'll say, "time" one moment please.

6. Double Board Bomb Pots can be Particularly tricky. You're looking a lot of scenario's. The SPR is already getting into a decent sized pot. You can get check raised and then you're stack could be put at risk pretty fast.

7. If I don't know what I'm doing, then maybe I should not be straddling in the game. The definition of "bad for the game" at some venues is that a person doesn't agree to straddle 100% of the time. They are taking a 5 5 game and trying to turn it into a 5 5 10 20 game.

8. Street by street, can anyone give me how much time I have to act in a typical NL game, PLO 4 and PLO 5?

Preflop
Flop
Turn
River

Or based by SPR.

9. Given what I said that I wasn't abusing the time and that I am entitled to take up to a minute without an issue according to the floor. Certainly 30 seconds is very reasonable in this spot.

And also this wasn't the first time that this player criticized me at the table. Like I said he's a good guy, but randomly complains about stuff.

Telling someone they are bad for the game is pretty insulting. I think playing top notch poker is good for the game.

1. You received at least 2 complaints that you mentioned above, and you made a post about it, so it does seem like it might be an issue.

2. 30 seconds is an eternity. And again, it was enough to get at least a couple of complaints from your tablemates. Maybe start your thinking process before action gets to you or practice scenarios away from the table so they're more automatic. Don't worry about how long others take to act, this is only about you.

3. None of this is relevant. You keep wanting to insult or demean this player, but this isn't about them. You can only control your own actions.

4. Of course that's what the floor is going to say. But the floor isn't sitting at the table with you and the other players. That you went to the floor about this without them otherwise getting involved is somewhat telling, also.

5. If you say "Time" it is going to sound like you're calling the clock on yourself. Just tell the other players, in a conversational tone, that you need a moment.

6. If you find DBBP's tricky, those are scenarios to work through away from the table so they become less tricky. And really, in most games your (effective) stack can be at risk on almost any given hand unless you're super deep.

7. There are lots of ways to be bad for the game. Taking too much time too often and not participating in straddling are just 2 of them. Some are more egregious than others, and it can vary from game to game, venue to venue. You need to be able to adapt and be someone that others want at the table, even if you're winning.

8. This is kind of a ridiculous question, and I would think you know that, but the real answer is: if you're not averaging under 10 seconds for every action, you're acting too slow.

9. I'm not trying to insult you. And I'm not saying you are bad for the game. But based on how you are describing the scenario and your reaction to it, I am telling you that at least some of the other players think that you are. And that can have adverse effects.

Taking a lot of time is often a huge tell.

Online it is one of the only tells I ever saw.

Live when somebody takes a long time and then bets big/shoves it is a huge tell of strength. Similarly if somebody takes a huge amount of time and then checks it is an indicator that either they have a somewhat decent hand or they were thinking about bluffing or semi-bluffing and didn't. Either way it is not a good way to play.

Once in Vegas many years ago, I tanked and then raised and the woman instantly folded and I realized what I had done. Moving forward when I was thinking about what to do in those type of situations I basically always called (which ironically makes it look like I am thinking about folding and can induce future bets).

However when you are on the river and facing a bet (or facing an all in bet before the river) and then you take time, with nobody to act behind you, then it is a typical and fair spot which has nothing to do about tells but more about fairness to players who are facing monumentally important decisions.

I appreciate the detailed reply.

Have you actually played a double board bomb pot at PLO at 10/20 plus?

I'm just asking because a lot of guys lose their stacks in those pots.

Given my description that the villain in my post just woke up, hadn't had his coffee, and was on a losing streak I would discount anything that he said. That wasn't the best version of him talking.

The other guy was a short stacker, and a bum hunter, also discounting what he said.

I stand my by premise that small pots are often more complex than the bigger pots, and especially double board bomb pots at PLO 2K +

As for dealing with people that are trying to rush you to make your decisions, I have one idea.

Any more suggestions?

Cheers!

I don't play PLO (any more). But I have played bomb pots in NL. And they are complex because anyone can have any hand. In your situation where everybody checked the flop it eaves onlly everyone missed or somebody is setting you up after smashing the flop.

My advantage in this thinking type situation is that I used to play 20/40 LHE at Foxwoods regularly. In that game nobody ever took time to think and I learned how to make hundreds of decisions a day quickly. Before that (in my life in general) I was unable to make any decisions quickly. Now of course there will be times when it is critical to think things through and sometimes taking time to decide what to do is what is going to happen. But I typically am spending a lot of my time thinking while other players are acting and/or between streets.

This hand was a few months ago.

I worked on my game quite a bit to improve my bomb pot play and my over all game.

I think it's smart to be a little patient with people that don't know what they are doing. I actually want people in there that don't know what they are doing. Recreational players are getting wiped out in the bomb pots pretty regularly.

I don't have really high opinion about the mindset of a typical 10/20 live pro after playing with them and observing their behavior the past year. I can't say that I look up to very many of them at all with regards to their play at the tables or the way that they conduct themselves at the table.

I was trying to find a role model in my the games but nobody came to mind.

The norm in live cash is to act pretty fast, like someone said typically under 10 seconds per decision. If you occasionally run into a tough spot and need some extra time people tend to be pretty understanding, IME. It's the habitual tanking that tends to bother people.

You mentioned it's sort of a conflict of interest, but really it's not. It's in everyones' best interest for you to act faster, including your own. Slowing the game down will hurt your hourly too. You'll get less hands in and the last thing you want is for a whale to get bored and leave. It's important to always keep the bigger picture in mind.

Personally I think it's reasonable to take some extra time in a double board PLO bomb pot. There's a lot to think about in those.

In general though one thing that might help both your game and your speed is to start planning ahead while other people are still acting. Ie) If he checks here I'm going to stab for 1/3 pot with my queen high air. If he calls I will bet big if the turn is X, Y or Z but check back otherwise. If he check-raises I will fold. That kind of thing. Then when those future events occur you already pretty much know what you're going to do.