Mega deep with KK IP, thinner? too thin?
1/3 NLHE 9 handed
Game is great, after triple barrelling AI an unknown on K-9-4-3-J with 56s and getting stationed down by KQ we've recovered by flopping straights, two pair and rivering sets. We've been trying to leverage our image of being FOS with massive overbets with thick value but sadly getting paid less than we would've liked.. still making river sizing mistakes. We're now up to 1800$ and cover the table.
V - Asian loose splash splash guy that I over-estimate/over-think. (what I mean by this is when he takes some unusual line like check-raising river, HE HAS IT DON'T OVERTHINK IT BANANA). He's got an aggressive flair sometimes and it's led me down a nuanced path on ranging him and how to play with him but really he's 90% loose passive and very sticky post-flop (loves to hero call). With the caveat that he fast plays all his draws, especially heads up and especially OOP. Earlier he x/raised flop into two people with a naked OESD on a 9-7-6 two ♥ with 88 no ♥. He bets a lot when checked to. Earlier we saw him open 99 UTG, UTG1 calls, I 3-bet in SB with some whatever hand, flop comes Q-6-3 I check fold whiffing entirely and he takes 99 for bet bet bet vs the UTG1 turning it into a bluff. I asked him why and he said "I know no one has a Q". So he can be quite aggressive when it doesn't make sense. He's capable of 3-betting hands like ATo and 77 pre when its heads up and its me but not at high enough frequency for it to be of much concern. Very linear. He once check-raise ripped it in OTF on K-7-2 in a 4-bet pot where I had AK and puke called and he had JJ and I was the preflop 4-bettor. SB. 1750$.
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One limp to H in CO with K♥ K♠ opens 15, V 3-bets SB to 60, only we call HU IP.
Flop 120 - 8♦ 7♣ 3♦
V cbets 60, H calls
Turn 240 - 7♠
check, check
River 240 - 8♥
V checks, H bets 75
21 Replies
Feels like you didn’t get enough value here but I don’t play this deep.
On the river it looks like V has Ace high and I think a sticky player with Ace high calls a lot more than $75 here.
Seems like a mandatory 4b pre, even if you just click it back.
As played, turn seems like a very easy barrel and a card you almost HAVE to bet for value, because so much of your range wants to bluff him off of A-high.
River size makes sense if you are trying to induce a bluff, but you said yourself in the OP that he doesn't XR bluff rivers, so just bet $200 and hope he looks you up with AQ or 99 or whatever.
Not 4betting and not betting turn are both awful. River sizing is bad too. Bomb it.
I don't know how much 4betting we should be doing CO vs SB at 500BB deep, but no matter what the computer thinks I'm 4betting this opponent all day long with KK. Do we want to make it big enough so that SB can't really 5bet unless it's a jam? Not sure tbh. Anyhow, 4bet.
Rest of the hand feels like it's a big long tale of missed value woe, but mainly the turn needs to be a bet, especially after only calling flop
whats the point of cultivating an image if you dont use it?
4b pre, and then bet bet bet every street. easy game.
id pot or overbet river if i got here this way
i think 1/3 is pretty bad when fd / sds miss and underpairs get counterfeited
pre is probably a mix given you open co and he 3bs sb (you are lp and he is depolarized) but my theory is people don't really adjust their play when they get deeper than 100 so i'd guess you could pure 4 / consider fold vs most people in practice. if you don't though, you need to play your hand for more value. the hand mostly just looks like weak tight play and leaves a lot of money on the table in several nodes. the mix between call and 4b implies that those options are equal, but i really doubt they end up equal if this is our postflop strategy.
200bb solve, solver will more or less pure b85 the river (flat flop is good, turn is mix but again this ev suffers greatly if you dont have enough betting volume otr) and it looks like a half bb mistkae to size down so not really a catastrophe. my thinking though is this guy is going to call quite a bit and not really adjust his range to your betsize. 1/3 is supposed to get called by t9 / j9 type hands at some frequency and i kind of doubt that happens. very very rare do you see less than half pot ever get used by ip otr
Since he wrote He's capable of 3-betting hands like ATo and 77 pre when its heads up and its me, I'd say we should be 4-betting more than just AA/KK/AKs.
If anything, I assume being 600BB deep means we can 4-bet more than if we were 150BB deep.
Of course, and like usual, Banana's reads don't make a lot of sense, since he says Villain is "90% loose passive, " yet 90% of what he wrote suggests Villain is a LAG and/or a button clicker.
We can 4bet KK small in this situation v player type at this stack depth, but wouldn't say it's mandatory.
I don't mind turn check.
I like subermsible's suggestion of overbet on river. Villain may even call with Q high here/likely calling with A high. Small river bet might induce, so you have to be bet/calling, although if V x-shoves/goes large, I don't know, you'd want to be confident of your reads.
He snap calls my 75 with QQ. I just felt I would hate to get x/raised after betting pot.
I would also 4bet. Even with AA, I need a pretty specific reason to not 4bet -- and I think flatting with KK is substantially worse. (Because AA dominates everything, whereas KK only has 70% against every random Ax, which is a big part of a 3betting range.) So to ever flat a 3bet with KK, I really would need an extremely good and probably very situation-specific reason, and I don't think that exists here. We do have position, which is an argument for flatting, but I don't think it's enough.
As played on the River, I think you could either go very small to get paid by high cards, or very large to get paid by a pair. Probably going large is better, about pot or a little higher, just because the upside is so much bigger if it works. If you bet 300, it only has to be called a quarter of the time to outperform a 75 bet that gets called 100% of the time, and we don't even know if AJ is calling 75.
Ya like I said first river is a bomb. Like 150% pot at least
I love playing deep even though my usual game doesn’t give me many chances.
I think it is OK to mix in a call sometimes with KK this deep, since with our overall range we are going to be calling way more than 4betting against someone we think is mostly passive.
The hand goes totally off the rails when you miss the turn bet. When he checks turn he is either totally giving up or he is bluff catching. You need to bet big now because he did not check his big pairs in order to fold them. If you are calling preflop for deception, you need to let your plan work now that your hand is disguised.
As played I can see why you would want to bet small on the river but I still think he plays all his big pairs this way and won’t fold them to a bigger bet. You should target those hands.
I saw you said you were afraid of being check/raised, but remember, when you are deep, your opponent is probably afraid of that too! That’s why he still is showing up with hands that can call more after he played so passively. I don’t think you took enough advantage of the stack depths here.
River is the perfect overbet spot. Solvers love the river overbet when the turn goes check/check and our range is polarized (even though this applies more when we are OOP). You just know this guy is never folding to a 2x pot bet if he has QQ-99.
I do think we should put in more action on the earlier streets, either 4-betting pre, raising the flop, or betting the turn. In order of mistakes I'd guess it goes like this:
not betting the turn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bet size on river >>>>>>>>>> not 4-betting pre >>>>>>>>>> not raising flop.
I'd like to point out to those in the audience that he has T9s, some 8x and some rare 7x here, even in a 3-bet pot, heavily discounted but probably 10-15% of his range...the rest being overpairs and broadways.
I'd like to point out to those in the audience that he has T9s, some 8x and some rare 7x here, even in a 3-bet pot, heavily discounted but probably 10-15% of his range...the rest being overpairs and broadways.
I don't think 8X and 7X are checking turn and river very often, so full house is a very slim portion of his range. Plus, like you said in the OP, if he check-raises the river, he just has it, so you can fold. Bet river $240 - $300 and fold to a jam.
With two 8's and two 7's on the board, there really aren't that many combos of 8X and 7X available. 2 A8s; 2 89s; 1 88; 0 87s; 2 A7s; 1 77; 2 76s. That's 10 combos total and by the time you get to the river, it's probably more equivalent to less then 3 combos. Instinctively, I would think that players are way less likely to 3bet super light OOP when playing this deep too.
4bet KK pre. If you just flat him pre, you better pile money in faster on a very favorable board to win a big pot for your KK.
I don't understand why you are slow playing your KK so much. You are missing a lot of value. It seems like you have a good image for getting action. You should take advantage of that image.
Seems like looking for monsters under the bed. I understand you don't want to get stacked for 600xBB. However, he usually doesn't have AA or 8x/7x.
4bet pre, triple
Given description, I would be willing to play for stacks vs him.
Way to go imho:
4bet pre 180$
Flop: 240$
Turn: 520$
River: All-in
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If you trap pf:
Flop: cool
Turn: 200$
River: 600$
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As played:
I would rather bet 750$ OTR than 75$ ... bomb it for sure. 2x Pot is cool I think.
