How you guys play reshoving spots on final tables
Let's say we have a final table with avg stack 40 big blinds, all players stacked from 15 to 80 bigs, we're five handed.
We have a stack of 20 bigs and get TT (a middle pair from 88 - TT). Chipleader opens, we're in the small blind. Do you reshove?
Midtourney I reshove +chipEV.
Here I happened to call pre and went postflop as I felt that's more aligned with Icm considerations. So I lost the pot postflop.
Later when I got dealed 99 in the small in a similar situation again against chipleader's open and what I perceived to be a not so strong call on the button (any slowplay's from midstack button here? Or generally strong holdings? I'd never consider reshoving if it was an early position overcall as more nutted hands have to be expected), I just reshove.
Chipleader called my 20 bigs off with AQoff and I went out as what felt like a too early finish on the final table.
Do we want to call and go postflop or just fold altogether against two opponents?
On the one hand, Icm makes me feel we'd not want to reshove in either of the above scenarios.
On the other hand, chipleader's open is very wide there for icm reasons, so we get even more fold equity, so the move is even more +chipEV than normal.
Do we just want to play Yolo, go max chipEV, become big stack with beautiful future game and press to our tournament win? What do you think?
13 Replies
Let's say we have a final table with avg stack 40 big blinds, all players stacked from 15 to 80 bigs, we're five handed. We have a stack of 20 bigs and get TT (a middle pair from 88 - TT). Chipleader opens, we're in the small blind. Do you reshove?Midtourney I reshove +chipEV.Here I happened to call pre and went postflop as I felt that's more aligned with Icm considerations. So
Im a donk but I’d always aim for the 2nd place and when I get there, I try to win the difference between 2nd and 1st place, not when table is still full and people fold down to 0.5bb. Thus, whatever helps me preserve to that position, I engage in. If it’s counterproductive, I don’t. I’d probably jam vs smaller stacks I have covered, and definitely fold vs a leader. I lost a loooot FTs entering as one of the largest stack in recent days, finishing 8th or 9th, I’ve learned my lesson
Where's the chip leader opening from, what are the payouts, what are the stack distributions? All of these affect the answer.
I'm not shoving over a chip leader opening UTG/8 if I have 20BB and 88-TT if a lot of the stacks are shorter than me.
But if I'm on 20BB and a middle-to-low stack in the blinds and the chip leader opens on the button, then I'm shoving all day.
The details of position, payouts, stack distribution, all of these things matter.
all mentioned (not in detail though, wanted to keep it somewhat general for general heuristics), we're fivehanded so it's midpositionish. stack distributions something along those lines. normal 500 player gg tourney final table payouts
If you dont shove (from the small blind), do you call or fold? [in the average situation from above]
Where's the chip leader opening from, what are the payouts, what are the stack distributions? All of these affect the answer.I'm not shoving over a chip leader opening UTG/8 if I have 20BB and 88-TT if a lot of the stacks are shorter than me.But if I'm on 20BB and a middle-to-low stack in the blinds and the chip leader opens on the button, then I'm shoving all day.The details o
This AINEC
Interesting thing about ICM is that spots like these we might more often reshove small pairs from the blinds vs. LP raises than medium ones, because hands like 88-99 block the opener's raise/fold range.
(TT is in a different class of hand, as it has better equity against two-overcard hands and there's a better chance you can reshove with it and get called by a worse pair.)
Post more specific hands with stacks and payouts and it'll be easier to get a more specific answer.
Honestly, the best answer might be "read Endgame Poker Strategy."
There are plenty of examples, yes
5-handed FT w/ 20bb, TT vs CL open is prob just the standard ICM reshove. Flatting gets awkward OOP at that depth, and shoving applies max pressure on their wide open range. With more players left to act though, you tighten up since the ICM tax jumps.
hmm interesting, that's approx the situation I had in mind, my strategy vs wide chipleader open:
tighter against midstack who opens into chipleader's bb:
again chipleader's open, many shorter stacks now but noone very short, Im 2nd in chips and have more calls:
it's always fairly similar when im in SB or somewhere midpositionish.
While ICM forces you to play tighter in these spots, with hands that are strong enough to play you often want to be taking aggressive actions. That's due to equity realization. If you call you're going to have the same ICM issues postflop and be forced to fold a lot.
TT preflop 5 handed in the SB should definitely be raising (according to a solver) against an open from the big stack (who should be opening wider than any other player).
