400BB backraise shove with 77?

This may be fold initially due to your stack size and players behind you. 77 plays well against a random hand, but your profit HU against it is not huge. You pick up maybe 40 HU against the blind hand and risk the 170 if someone behind shoves.

Might be hard to get him to fold JJ, as you might have AK or whatever. But his range to minraise might be more polarized. Not sure why he minraises rather than shoves. Is he folding to a shove or trapping with AA/KK?

If he folds to your shove, you gain his 400 plus about 40 in expectation against the blind hand, so about 440. If he call with a higher pp, you lose about 330 in the main pot and about 70 in the side pot for about 400. If you fold, you lose 170. So the shove needs to work about 35% of the time.

If you don't backshove, the play may be to call rather than shove. You are getting some odds and implied odds to hit a set and he may check it down if you are ahead on the flop. Calling seems icky, but it could be best once you got into this situation by calling the first time.

IDK
Whenever I do something like this the guy not only beats me, he wins the ‘high hand’.

I can’t really tell what you’re in for before the $400 bet, or whether villain described folds here. ‘Not overly aggressive’ but $400 bet seems aggressive. ‘Not bluffing at a high frequency’ so do you think he does this with 66?

I have a feeling you’re going to have a positive result, because good TAG players have learned to fold against all-in bets. Not sure if this is a great play or a crazy one.

Re-reading, I see the all-in now, so the $400 was not a real aggressive play. But dang, that river shove sure was!

0% chance a cold 4 bet to $400 will fold for $770 more. If he does, please send him my way.

Technically, it is a cold 3!.

Isn't H supposed to reshove this initially? H is 2:1 vs V1's random hand, so ideally, H would like to get this HU. Reshoving does that, while folding out V2, etc hands that are favorites or have significant equity vs H. V2, V3's reshove calling range is much smaller than their overcalling range, and so the vast majority of the time, a reshove gets through. With H winning net ~2/3 of 170. Even if V2, V3 know exactly what you're doing. Of course, when they show up with QQ+, H has a sad, but that's rare.

AP, I'm with Surprisebets. V2 shouldn't fold to a reshove now, after sticking in >1/3 of your stack & H isn't doing great against a pot-committed V2 3! range. Which is a decent question: what do we think V2's range is here? I'm giving V2 something like 88+, AQs+, AKo. Against which, H is 30%.

IME, 2.2x raises in this particular context are either AA getting cute, or a hand like H's, who would very much like H to fold without risking their entire stack with a reshove. So maybe H does have some FE here? I think H gets sigh-called, though we've seen Vs do things like stick in 40% and fold.

Probably folding AP. Best case, H is likely going to take a flip for 400 bb. Worst case, H pretty much set 400 bb on fire. (Edit: Oops, didn't realize Banana shoved. Hope it got through! Shove the first time though.)

You have 7 bigs ship it in yourself.

I would fold preflop the first time due to having way too many people still behind us to act.

Unless V2 thinks we're maniacal (which he might?), our flat for this much from this position is *insanely* strong. And yet he just 4bet us anyways, with still 3 people behind him.

Ginb4V2foldsQQfaceup,ldoG

You are not picking up 2/3 of 170 if you get HU versus the blind shove. If you are 2/3 to win against a random hand (I can't find win percentage versus a random hand, you pick up about 1/3 of 170. You win 2/3 * 340 ~= 227. 227 - 170 = 57.

When you make a 10xBB push in a tournament with 2.5xBB blinds and antes, you are pushing 4x what you will pick up. Here you are pushing about 20x what you will pick up, so it is sort of like a 50xBB shove. Now some of the players to act may not be so deep. You also usually fold out 88/99 maybe TT/JJ sometimes. The push is at least close to $EV even. It is also a huge gamble. You will win the 170 often, but get stacked a lot more than you double up.

Now you could flat call and fold to a push from a big stack and have to call a push from a smallish stack. You would fold 170 and pick up 57 if everyone folded. Also, sometimes someone will overcall.

When he minraises, you probably can't flat call. You are getting 4-1 immediate odds, but not much implied odds. You don't always get stacks in when you hit, as he doesn't always have QQ+. Hard to play when you miss.

I don't think he is ever minraising with AK/JJ. If your shove is called you are probably screwed. I guess it wound up well that you are posting it.

I would just fold initially. Obviously BB can call with half his hands and SB can call/push much wider than you can. I don't think shoving or flat calling initially loses much though.

Fold

Fold the first time too, although calling or shoving do not lose much on average.

Result: V2 folds TT, V1 has 67o and makes a straight, we win 60$

Another good reason to shove the first time, we can fold out better.

This is pretty bad by V2 (great for you), but even if V2 3bets 99+ and folds JJ- (50% of range) ... you are still "flipping" for either +$230 or -$800.

As OmahaDonk said, I can understand a shrug reshove the first time around.

LOL. Not in a million years would I raise/fold TT here.

He didn't want to put stacks in dominated by a higher pp.

Obviously 😉 So, he should not have raised.

jiminy clickit over here

Grunch:

The thread title alone had me thinking, "what in tarnation?" - and I try not to use such folksy language unless it's entirely deserved.

READS - I don't understand "TAG for profit ABC" - that can't be right, in a 1/3 game, unless we know he's waiting for a seat in a bigger game, and even then, "TAG", "ABC" and "for profit" don't really jive.

PRE - What in tarnation?

The AI blind from V1 is cute. I think I'd probably call this off if there were fewer players to act behind us, like if we were on the CO or the BTN, or defending out of the BB. If we had a better hand and weren't set-mining, I'd probably raise, not call.

When we're in the LJ or HJ, I don't really love getting involved with middling PP's. If we want to get involved with a speculative holding, I think I'd rather have something like Ace-wheel suited - something that blocks some AX and has some nut-making potential to make up for its lack of showdown value.

The problem with getting involved with 77 is we're going to get squeezed a lot, and we don't really have any way of knowing when we're getting squeezed light, or squeezed by a hand that's legitimately better than ours, and even the light squeezes that make sense aren't going to be dominated by our hand. It's not like someone is going to make it $400 with 66 or a worse PP when we've already called the $170.

The back raise AI...I mean...I can't tell if we're jamming for value or as a bluff, and if that's the case, my hunch is you're not sure yourself, but you're kinda sorta hoping V2 folds?

I'm not sure how much fold equity we have here, when we just flat from the LJ / HJ. The pot will be $1740 and V2 will have to call off $770, so he'll be getting over 2.25:1. If our read is right, that he's not a very creative player, nor is he overly aggressive, and not bluffing at a high frequency, I wouldn't think he'd show up with very many hands that are better than ours, or doing much worse than flipping, which are likely to fold.

Maybe he folds out 99 and 88. Maybe TT occasionally, or some of his trashier over-card combos, but I can't think of very many trashy over-card combos that are going to 3B to $400 when he can just over-call the $170 and play post-flop in position.