Getting out of line 4-handed pre
Hi 2+2, I had an interesting hand playing on Global Poker (no HUD or stats available). One main villain with no reads other than they don't egregiously wide preflop, but I don't have enough data/history to say they are too tight/don't have bluffs, and one other villain that contributes some dead money but otherwise folds pre and isn't involved that much.
9max table, we are 4 handed 0.10/0.20, $21.88 I am the effective stack, main villain covers me.
Folds to me on the BTN I open KcJs to $0.60. SB flats and main V in the BB 3! to $3. I wouldn't mind flatting IP with suited KJ but I am not suited. In the moment I figured that BB should be 3! wide since we are 4 handed and it's a BB vs BTN configuration. I chose to get out of line and 4! light with my hand to $6.5. If our table were more full (6 or more players) I would have folded to this 3! and moved on. SB gets out of the way immediately, main V in the BB calls.
Flop is JhTh6c ($13.6). Main V checks to us and we ship it ($15.38) with just above 1:1 SPR
Postflop (imo) plays itself and I'm not worried about it that much. Thoughts on the 4! light pre? Thoughts on the thinking process?
Thanks in advance
8 Replies
We don't have 4bet here other than shove.
6.5 =32.5bb
Thats like 1/3 of your stack.
You're pot committed or near pot committed at this point.
If we have small 4bet size its about 1/5-1/4 of your stack.
Once it gets to 1/3 of your stack, you're in world of pain with bluffs. Because you're pot committed.
So preflop it's either call or fold.
so the issue is just sizing? is this a fine 4bet bluff 4 handed or just fold pre? is calling really ok because I don't love that idea.
so the issue is just sizing? is this a fine 4bet bluff 4 handed or just fold pre? is calling really ok because I don't love that idea.
Sizing is the only issue. Calling w/KJo is fine btn vs bb especially if bb is aggro.
Defending(calling ip) vs 3bets is normal but not sure about opponents 3bet sizing.
It's 5x your open (15bb) is huge as a 3bet. I'll give it a tighter range unless he only goes this size. So probably a fold unless he does it all the time with this bet size.
Normally I don't 4bet much as btn myself unless villain in blinds get out of line all the time. The thing with 4betting as btn is that you supposed to have a wide stealing range, when you 4bet you're repping a super narrow range.
Calling and seeing a flop, while playing in position puts you in advantage already if villain 3bets light.
alrighty thanks man.
results: villain calls flop jam with AA and scoops.
as played I'm not super worried about it.
follow up question that's a bit more on the theoretical side: is villain trapping AA OOP as BB vs BTN 4! 4 handed OK or is that a mistake? if that is a mistake, how can I adjust to exploit that in the future? Does that mean if I 4! pre IP with V calling, V is uncapped going to the flop, what's my next step to adjust?
or maybe if I know V will trap with AA facing 4! I should 4! tighter and reduce bluffs?
You shouldn't think of this as being a "4-handed" spot. It's a BTN vs BB spot, it doesn't change because you are short-handed. When you play short-handed, you should still play the same ranges for each position that you would at a full-ring game. But because you are always playing CO or later, you will naturally play many more hands.
I think the pre-flop play here is too loose. Just fold KJo pre to the BB 3bet. BB can be 3betting wide here, but a lot of players aren't going to find that many bluffs when they can just call and close the action. GTOWizard folds this hand pre-flop despite the BB occasionally squeezing as wide as Q3s.
I wouldn't worry about the BB flatting AA pre to trap. This is a normal play that someone might make to balance their range. I don't think you can really exploit this without knowing a lot more about Villain's strategy.
I play higher on Global but played this game before. Fold pre always.
We don't have 4bet here other than shove.
6.5 =32.5bb
Thats like 1/3 of your stack.
You're pot committed or near pot committed at this point.
If we have small 4bet size its about 1/5-1/4 of your stack.
Once it gets to 1/3 of your stack, you're in world of pain with bluffs. Because you're pot committed.
So preflop it's either call or fold.
This is a cash game. There is no such thing as pot committed. The only question after 4-betting for 1/3 of your stack is whether or not you are getting proper pot odds on a flop call.
Suppose you 4-bet a third of your stack and villain calls. He then donk shoves for 2/3 of the starting stack. That is a pot-sized shove so you need 33% equity to call that. It is no different mathematically than if you made a standard open and villain made a pot sized donk bet. Are you honestly saying that you would call an 8BB bet into an 8BB pot no matter what the flop was or what your hand was? Likewise there’s no reason to call a 60BB bet into a 60BB pot no matter what the situation is. You can find plenty of spots where you fold to that bet.
Pot committed is a concept in tournament because after betting a large fraction of your stack and then folding you will be left with a short stack that gives you a diminished chance of winning the tournament or cashing. This isn’t an issue in a cash game. After betting a third of your stack and then folding, you can top off and play with a normal stack. The fact that you already bet a third of your stack is irrelevant to your decision making going forward. You are NOT pot committed after betting a third of your stack.
Note — I’m not saying shoving pre is wrong here. I am saying that shoving pre because we are pot committed is fallacious reasoning. It might still be correct to shove pre against some opponents in spots like this; it just isn’t because we are pot committed.
