DBBP strong enough to flat?

pot

Pot, we want to knock out as many players as possible while we have good but vulnerable equity.

I'm assuming this is here because it might provide a read. What are your thoughts?

Just trying to give the readers here the same information I have at the table. I think he’s unremarkable as a player but I have limited time with him. Probably wide, sticky. I expect 0 folds from him after he potted, regardless of following action.

I would assume that no one is pot folding when your raise basically puts you all in. There are some hands that have us in bad shape but that’s poker.

Results: H pots, folds back V who flats. H stuffs in last $51 out of turn and blind heading to turn. V calls are turns are dealt. Top board bricks out and H takes top. Bottom board turns flush and bricks river and H scoops.

I thought pot OTF was standard and really not that close. Afterwards I was wondering if I left value on the table / misplayed the flop.

you can figure this out yourself just by asking if you think a bigger gutter up top and K high FD on bottom would peel behind you closing the action if you flat and if you would get them to fold when you pot. your hand is strong enough to stack off but loses a fair bit of its strength when we don't clean up our equity by pushing out decent equity hands that will have odds to peel when we flat

go play live plo in a big city/tech city and you'll find out

pot seems very standard

I wouldn't pot here. While we have a mediocre strong hand now and play both boards, we don't have nutted run outs. A hand like AJTx, AJ98, AT98, AJ99 etc with nut hearts is the type of hand you want to pot here with.

Correct, we jam. We can't sit here with a 75bb stack and wait to have nut draws on both boards, we need to ship and force out people who have only the nut draw or slightly more nutted draws than us on only a single board. We can't be mucking every time we hit pretty damn hard just bc more nutted draws might be out there lurking in the weeds amongst 3 different players. Ship it in and force them out or force them to draw to the nuts on only a single board. Sometimes we have to kamikaze off our stack in these spots if people are gonna do so with theirs drawing to a single board. We're not supposed to or going to win every pot, that's part of poker

You guys can play how you want, but jamming isn’t correct here.

Again, you don’t have any nutted runouts, you aren’t drawing to the nuts, and your hand is vulnerable to better hands on every flop.

While you have a strong hand that plays both boards, it’s not strong enough on either to commit stacks.

So you just fold the flop?

Folding is ridiculous. We just call here.

Calling is what allows nut draws on 1 board to draw for the right price and you're putting 20% of your stack in while doing so when you could leverage the rest of your stack to protect your equity rather than diminishing it by calling w/ hardly any good run outs for our hand if we go 3-5 ways to the turn

I’m confused

So we don’t want to call because we have no good run outs

So instead we want to jam?

Please read what I said. We don't have good run outs when we go 3-5 ways to the turn. If we go hu or even 3 ways to the turn we will have some good run outs. If we ship the flop and 3 people call our jam then yes I expect we will get stacked a pretty high %. We aren't trying to avoid that situation every hand tho, esp when we have a 75bb stack. If we were on a 150bb stack we would be in a much different situation. Getting stacked is part of poker and pushing marginally +EV spots increases your chances of getting stacked despite the situation being profitable overall, that's called "higher variance"

I had assumed you understood that "strong enough to flat" means strong enough to invite other callers, basically trapping. This is clearly not the case here.

The "nutted runouts" kind of hands that you want to shove are some of the best candidates for "strong enough to flat" because they dominate so much other stuff, even multiway. Your EV vs. the field may still be higher by shoving many of them, depending on player tendencies, etc., and with Hero's stack size I'd probably just shove them all as well.

Let’s make sure we are logically consistent here.

Are you two jamming for value or as a bluff?

Or are we jamming because we don't know how nor do we want to play turns because they will be hard?

It seems like it’s more than two people and they took time to outline why they are potting. Defining something as a bluff or value is too simplistic as there is also the denial of equity

But maybe good ole’ Scotch can help bridge the divide here.

What if you had $160 on table, would you just call or put the rest in? Assuming you put it in at $160 but not $400 tell them what $X amount is where you think it’s best to call. They acknowledge that things would be different with a deeper stack

The smaller the SPR and our stack size the less equity we need to stack off profitably and we can also stack off with a larger portion of our range.

The larger the SPR and our stack size in BB the more equity we need to stack off and the stronger our range needs to be to get significant BBs in

This is a unique situation where SPR is 5 but the relative size of our stack is only 75bb.

I see why everyone is saying, but it’s only 75bb so whatever, but once we see a flop we care about SPR more.

So by SPR standards we need around 40-45% equity to stack off vs one player. Vs two we need to have around 35% overall vs both of them and 4 we need around 25% vs all opponents.

We have the nuts on one board with no redraw (good enough if by itself heads up) but the problem is this is a shared nut hand. Anyone else can have the same nuts with a redraw.

The other board we have bottom 2 pair which is again, a shared nuttish hand and could be dead to sets and higher two pairs with draws, and we have the 3rd NFD which could be dead by itself.

So considering the equity we need to stack off, and the strength of our hands in relation to hands that should correctly stack off vs our jam, we are dead or very often behind/getting quartered making this a -EV jam given the SPR.

We’re jamming to get better draws than ours that are only on a single board out and clean up our equity. If we flat and 5 people see the turn our equity sucks. If we jam and it gets hu we have great equity, if we jam and 5 people see the turn we’re gonna get stacked like 90% but this is very unlikely to happen

Just need to give everyone the $X amount between 160 and 400 that is breakpoint iyo and we’re done here

The reasons you jam at 160 are same as those who are doing it at 400.