Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

Some more reads needed on "solid guy" ... way too many people spew call 66/33/76s pre. and don't donk TT here so have 6x or 33 here almost pure. Maybe 54 as a bluff, maybe 77 as a bluff/value/whatever.
If he can call QQ and donk it that's another problem.

Might just fold JJ on the flop.

QQ seems like a much better card for H than V, and if we get raised then AA/KK are probably folds unless V is very creative.

River sucks (vs. 77/76/54/33), so V needs to be value betting worse a decent amount or bluffing. Wouldn't be calling JJ, if it got here, without good reads.

So last time I played live cash, the splashy whale-type guy on my right asked me to straddle $10 UTG and he's been giving plenty of action so I agreed. We're playing 1/2.

UTG+2 raises to $20, 2 or 3 callers including splashy guy and it gets back to me and I had 43o and I called. This is just a fold right? Considering I have the lowest equity of all the hand ranges and won't be able to realize that much equity. I probably have 15-20% equity preflop and might be able to realize about 1/2 of that at most? Is that the best way to think about these spots? In addition to hot/cold equity and the nuttiness of your speculative hand if you hit?

Yep, it's a fold poker-wise, but for the good of the game, I make the call.

(FWIW, next time tell the guy you will straddle your BTN 😉 )

I mean, while there are obviously very real problems with RIO / playing OOP / realizing equity / etc., I'm never gonna hate too much on calling a minraise here closing the action. It's pretty much like completing the SB in 1/2 NL with anything remotely playable and a BB behind us that has a 0% preflop raising frequency; if we play ~ok postflop, it seems like at worst a small mistake.

Gsatleast,imoG

If you are going to play for hours and hours with these 1-2 players who are straddling/gambling a lot ... it's maybe fine to call 43o for the lolz, as long as you make sure you show it somehow.

Almost certainly better to save your $10 though.

Again, look at almost any preflop charts ... robots are happily folding J8o/87o while calling 64s/54s.

To repeat the point 43s is a robot open fold from the BTN, unless there's an ante and no straddle ... and 43o is an open fold all the time.

How much credence to you normally give to limps? How much do you contract your LP range facing multiple limps versus the action folding to you?

In particular in the session that made me think about this, I was in the CO with KTo facing two limps from more fishy players and with a bank of three reasonably competent LAGs to my immediate left (although I think they were specifically more interested in having fun than winning money).

It seems like the obvious answer is somewhere between an RFI range and a 3B range, but curious what factors you consider here and where the specific example fits.

1/3 8 handed
Hero just changed tables the very first hand
v young asian guy
H asian guy jn 30s
effective 450

preflop
3 limpers
H opens to 25 in mp w/TT-AA
V in blinds call

pot 60
flop 532c
V checks H cbets 35 V calls
V has alot of pp?

Pot 120
Turn 3c
V checks
h bets 125
V tank call

Pot 270
River 2
V snap donk jam pot ???
We never have boats/quads here so we are at top of our range???
We calling our whole value range here?
We were going to jam the river when he checks which he didn't.

I would never bet this amount with AA. Why did you do it? I wouldn't even bet that big on the flop.

vs. most any2 fish in the BB you mostly crushing them so hard they need runner runner, or maybe a two outer ... or they called like 64/54/etc and you have no idea and no chance to catch up.

Turn is the same, 43/63/etc are now in front, so it's not like you can bet big because it's a brick. And then you maybe have 55/33/22/A3s depending on ranges and which part of MP etc. and maybe they call 99 or even JJ that they just called pre. but mostly they have air and fold or you don't want calls.
Even worse is if they decide they'll call 66 and then randomly bluff rivers.

On river would assume V had 73o or whatever and wasn't sure it was good enough to raise on the turn given your giant bet ... but now he doesn't lose to A3 so why not put it in, or maybe 22 that was worried and now isn't. But exact range he donk shoves with here is mostly unknowable vs. a 1-2/1-3 random, IMO and will sometimes include some hands worse than overpairs.

We never have such opening range (55/33/22/A3s) for 25 unless we are crazy super aggro.

We have fake aggro image being asian ourself???
Get stacks in, villain is really faced up with pp no??? Occasionally we lose to sets. But turn pairing the board makes it less likely no？
They weren't folding anything, so might as well get all the money in on the turn then ship on the river, the only range they folding is if they have Ax specifically which might or might not call another bet.
We might have some random Ax bluffing range???

Well a bunch of LAGs to your left changes things here LOL. I fold KTo here, I would open KJo or KTs though so I guess it's close. There is no hand I overlimp in this situation (except possibly premiums to torment a frequent squeezer), with a passive lineup I would overlimp some hands from CO and more from BTN.

My range changes based on:

- position (obviously)
- how many limpers (more is tighter)
- reads on remaining players to act (more aggro = tighter)
- reads on limpers (most are just bad but limp/re-raisers need to be handled with caution)
- stack depth (usual reasons)

Well yes 😀

If it's a bunch of weak fish, I am just abusing position and not worrying.

But...

KJo with the LAGs yet to act? It's a slightly mixed fold RFI from the LJ at the smaller/wider 2x GTO size and a pure fold CO vs LJ RFI. It seems like we didn't contract all that much versus a GTO RFI range on the CO.

More to my thinking at the table though, when the limpers tend to be limp-callers, opening over limps tends to go multi-way and in particular it's very unlikely the LAGs fold here. I don't like the thought of playing KTo 4-5 ways with LAGs who are going to stab big and polar, or really KJo either. Ax suited or pp seem like a better range to play in this spot (yes, I'm opening KTs all day from here).

I did fold. I was seen as pretty tight for making folds like that; one of the LAGs made fun of me for showing KK on consecutive hands I played but staying tight in front of LAGs seemed solid in general.

Again, maybe not worth posting. Too much text, yada yada, it is what it is. It's in the big thread of ignorability anyway:

Mohegan Sun 1-2 on a Thursday night (3x status for another hour or so) day. At this point most of table are randoms though.

V0 young kid bought it in 200 running like god and being super agro. up $800 or more, on BTN.

V1 also young, initial vibe was that he maybe could be competent but has been doing weird recently things esp. vs. V0 where he 3bet 73s to 30-35 in BB vs. CO/BTN 10 open and then folded when V0 4bet QTo to 110, V1 _said_ after the hand he was thinking of 5bet shoving. Mention it mainly because he has to be paying some attention to what is happening.
Has been limping and open sizes have been all non-consistent, but mostly 10+. Active

H Probably has a super tight image, lots of bad hands just fold ... been 3bet a bunch by V0 when I did open, mostly folded to 3bets, missed most flops or get outdrawn, down piles. $330ish, almost everyone covers.

V1 UTG open 6
H in MP 3bet A♠K♠ to 26
folds to V1
call

Pot: 55
Flop: AQ♠Jr
V1 x
H bet 15
V1 calls

Pot: 85
Turn: AQ♠J 6♠
V1 x
H bet 130
V1 shoves
I snap call

...I guess I'm mostly interested in thoughts on sizes, esp. if we should ignore the small open and 3bet bigger. Also GTO flop downbet or nah? And GTO turn overbet or nah ... also if anyone thinks much on turn vs. shove and what you think about.

Only thing that really stands out to me is the turn. What is the overbet targeting? T9? We want to draw spades if he has them, and seems like made hands strictly call better and fold worse. I think a smaller size would be called by more one-pair hands, and honestly my instinct was to check back and either make the nuts or bluffcatch, but I can be known to be cowardly. Similarly, I am folding to the x/r as absent a read, turn x/r is never a bluff. Like... if he wants to x/r T9 wouldn't he do that on the flop? We heavily block spades.

Turn sizing large was mainly to deny equity to random stuff calling the flop assuming it'd see the river for cheap. And GTOness 😉
Was considering betting large on non-spade "brick" turns too, but maybe more like 55 ... the spade was a giant go flag.

Didn't even think about folding, and I think that was mainly due to "PLO instincts" where we dominate every draw and have equity vs. all value hands.

Also mathematically we kind of have to call the shove after betting 130, unless we have amazing reads that V always has KT or close, because we have over 40% equity vs. QJ. Can obviously bet less, and then maybe fold ... or have the reads, if we are that good.

Anyway, results...

Yeah, I think it's clarity of hindsight to think of going small for value here.. but probably something your LS villains are unlikely to notice.

Especially on a triple Broadway board in a 3bp, it seems like V is going to be folding a lot more intelligently here (maybe even too much, in my games I feel like callers of my 3bs play FOF and fold to cbets too much) - if we're stuck with one bet size I'm guessing a solver would b80 or overbet, but it feels like an exploit we can get away with to go smaller with value and avoid commitedly isolating against better just to protect the bluffs.

I didn't adequately consider the math here, just saw xrai and didn't go back and count what was left back 😀

I also failed to actually count outs and odds, as even versus AQ we have 34% (I think that's... 15 outs plus a bonus for V not holding any of them?). My mind was just that V isn't bluffing and has a better made hand. KT and sets are all in range too, but given the actual odds I think you are indeed right to snap it off.

1/3

Hero: AcKc in HJ ($400 effective)
CO: $100 (brand new to the table MAAW rec)
BTN: Covers (MAWG, competent, aware TAG, likely views me as same)

PF: UTG RFI 10 (off $70 stack), Hero 3b to $40 in HJ, CO call (off $100 stack), BTN call (400 eff), UTG folds.

Going 3-way to the flop, first to act. CO has $60 left, BTN and Hero at $360 effective.

Flop ($125): Qh3c3s
Hero first to act?

I have 2 overs and BDFD w/ SPR of ~3 with the deeper stack.

Questions:
Does betting just get worse to fold and better to call and therefore I should check?
Should I be planning on starting a multi-street bluff vs BTN on this kind of board bc he should just have AQ & maybe KQs that could hang on?
How does the short stack in the middle factor into this potential plan?

I would mostly be looking to get all in with the short stack, and maybe look at if we can leverage that to get BTN to fold equity.

Q33r is very good for the preflop 3bet player. Assuming you have the good Qx hands in range, as well as the overpairs and JJ.

There's some value in playing it slow on some boards because the short stack isn't folding as much, and will generally be calling better than no pair.

That can also be true on boards like this when V's are too bad/whatever to fold.

I definitely wouldn't be sitting in this seat just 2 to the right of likely the best player at the table non-short.

I like our 3bet sizing cuz it allows the betting to be reopened if the UTG shoves.

Weird flop spot. Button's coldcall is concerning. This is often JJ/TT/AK which he might release in a protected pot if we bet shorty's last $60 (and we could still easily be ahead of shorty). But this could also be QQ/AQs/KQs which he likely isn't releasing, at least to one bet. Think I'm ok with a $60 bet as the last money I'm putting in UI.

GcluelessNLnoobG

The last couple of games in my little 1/2 "home" game I have noticed that I'm missing a ton of $$$ not playing A2o, - A9o from EP/MP. I usually just fold them. For the most part, my opponents are very passive and will limp/call (raises from $7 - $15) w/ suited connectors, suited one-gappers, Ax, any two face cards, K9o+, Kx suited, etc. They will 3bet (and limp/3bet) w/ KK/AA and maybe QQ/AK suited. They rarely RFI -- only a few of them do and it's w/ pairs and big Aces.

Should I just start raising all Ax? Or, should I limp in EP knowing exactly what I'm up against? I know limping is a no-no here, but it can actually pay off in this game. I just keep folding my lousy Ax, the rest of the table limps in, the flop comes Ax, and a low pair or high card wins the pot. It's getting frustrating to experience.

Ax is surprisingly strong in home games against clueless players.

However,

A2o doesnt do well against 98s, while being marginally better, it doesnt play out that well.

Into multiple callers, even worse.

I think you are missing the fact that those were blessed flops into noobs. Also missing the fact that K9s is unlikely to pay you off on a ace high board. Also missing the fact that your investment was near zero, it was just one of the hand out of 9 that cost you 3$ to see.

They are different levels of passivity and skill, thats whats most important to understand.

When the table goes from clueless to just not good, A2 becomes hell.

If the players folds a bit more, attempt to trick you a little more, are less passive, know what is value a little more, and willing to bluff more; A2 becomes hell. What do you do on the turn? You bet so a better kicker calls you? You check so you can get brought to value town or be bluffed in a spot where you could have the best hand or not?

Most tables, most casinos, A2o is a snap fold in EP.

Its a bit like me, frustrated that I folded J8 on a JJ8 flop and my friend says relax you had J8 was a good fold with the information you knew at the time.

Digging into maths and experience, EP begins at AJ~

In a way, not only did you get "lucky" to see an ace on the board, but you were also "lucky" that A2 was the best hand preflop.

Also 98 is already better, makes nut straight, makes top pair, makes random stuff against A2. It ~plays better even thought its preferable to have the actual best hand in the long run, which is A2.

If I go all-in pre with A2 and you call me with K9s im not a happy camper. Proly gonna stress the flop just to see the k hit the river.

But you are still correct, folding A2 pre in ep into ultra passive weak and unskilled players is actually skipping out on big money.

On the other hand, if they are non-professional but still with a clue, A2 ep is a mistake, and if they 3bet too much its also a mistake, if they trap its a mistake.

It really dont need them to be professional for them to make A2 to A10 a mistake.

This is asymmetrical risk though, sometimes you win a small bullshit pot, other times you get put in the blender by hands as weak as AT

I would keep folding unless you are having image problems.

You might be a small equity favorite versus 5 other hands of ATC, but the RIO are steep when you pair the Ace and the "clueless station" outkicks you. The problem is that you can't know for sure when you have the best hand.

For loose-passive games, focus on hands that make the nuts or at least something very good. Ax suited, pocket pairs, Kx suited and suited connectors if you really want to widen up. I would focus on being wide and squeezing in position rather than trying to force things to happen by RFI from EP. You can exploit the passivity to limp in wider though - if you regularly come close to limped family pots you are close to the direct odds to setmine already.

@ Java

I'm folding A9o- from every position (not even really sure if they are worth the headache even as a blinds steal when folded to the Button), even in a great game. My guess is that you're being a little results oriented seeing a couple of pots that would have been pushed your way had you played. But mid-hand facing a bet multiway these hands suck and you're going to have a hard time deciding whether they are actually worth putting in any bets with postflop.

GcluelessAxonoobG

I'm sure I am being results oriented -- it's just happened so often lately! I might start opening them a little more from MP - LP depending on who has limped and who is yet to act, but I'm know overall limping them is bad. Thanks for reminding me 😉