OOP vs 3Bet
1/3 $400 effective
Folds to CO opens for $15, Button raises to $45, sb folds, Hero in BB with AQo?
If you don’t fold here, what about AJo?
If you do fold here, what about AKo?
In practice, the read of villains is a big factor, but generically speaking what’s the best move? Does anyone 4Bet?
14 Replies
It's entirely dependent on the game and players. Without any description or anything.. at 1/3... its a fold.
Absent any reads to deviate, AK would be a 4-bet, AJs/AQo would be a fold, AQs would probably be "whatever" (although with live rake solver only likes raising or folding).
Hero rips it in, holds against AT, take THAT solver kids!
I make a trivial fold here with AQo against the vast majority of opponents who are simply raising / 3betting the strength of their hand and likely not 3betting light (even in a fold-to-the-CO-open configuration). Would also default to a fold with AKo readless.
GbutI'magiantnit,sothere'sthatG
Readless I fold AQo here.
AKo I want to 4bet but I'm going to make decisions based on reads because the problem is LLSNL 3bet ranges tend to be heavily skewed to value and too sticky.
Pros should correct me if I am wrong, but hero will lose money if he always 4bets AKo. In this situation, it makes sense to 4bet to fold out the CO and go the the flop with position. But you can fold facing a 3bet by a loose passive who raises only only QQ+, AK, a range that gives you just 37 percent equity with your AK.
Not a pro, but that's true. EDIT 38.8% I think from Equilab.
I 4bet AK vs. people who I perceive to have a wider 3bet range than QQ+/AK and also have a fold button. I also fold AK to 4bets. Note I play 2/3 NL $500 effective, so generally 166bb+ deep which I makes a difference, I guess around 100bb is where I lean more to 4bet shrug-shipping AK.
Yeah there is no generally speaking. There is no such thing as a default or general 3bet range live. There's a median 3bet range live, which is probably QQ+, AK because about half of all players almost never 3bet. So if you're asking about the median, then I think it's a fold. If BN is a strong or even decent player though, then it's a 4bet.
Yeah there is no generally speaking. There is no such thing as a default or general 3bet range live. There's a median 3bet range live, which is probably QQ+, AK because about half of all players almost never 3bet. So if you're asking about the median, then I think it's a fold. If BN is a strong or even decent player though, then it's a 4bet.
Yeah but most of us usually have some heuristic we start off with in any game particularly against unknowns.
For instance, at low stakes, my default 3 bet range is fairly tight at AQs+, AKo+, JJ+, and I will adjust depending on position, or as I learn more about players.
Also be very careful about over-adjusting based on small samples. Your default should be based on Bayesian Priors for similar games, and it takes quite a big sample to start deviating significantly. BTW Ed Miller has a fantastic piece on this.
Yeah but most of us usually have some heuristic we start off with in any game particularly against unknowns.For instance, at low stakes, my default 3 bet range is fairly tight at AQs+, AKo+, JJ+, and I will adjust depending on position, or as I learn more about players.Also be very careful about over-adjusting based on small samples. Your default should be based on Bayesian Pr
Right, I think how I phrased this was pretty confusing. I agree that you have a heuristic to start with. (This can't actually be false; it doesn't matter what people do, it always follows some distribution, and you have to range someone if you react to what they do, so you have to use some heuristic.)
The only point I was trying to make is that the ranges of people are so drastically different that it's not very useful to think of people as having a default range that you then adjust. Unlike with, idk, raise frequencies, which are more clustered. So it's only a mundane point about the distribution being very wide. (And also if people hear "default" they often change it to "GTO range", which in this case is a terrible starting point.)
Also be very careful about over-adjusting based on small samples. Your default should be based on Bayesian Priors for similar games, and it takes quite a big sample to start deviating significantly. BTW Ed Miller has a fantastic piece on this.
Not if you get a showdown though. If you see me 3betting and then tabling 7♦8♦, then this one data point is enough to completely change your distribution. But true if you only get frequency data points; I've gotten into trouble several times before by deviating from my prior too quickly. E.g., someone raises the Flop on me twice and I assume they must be unusually aggressive, then the third time I don't believe them and they just show up with a premium, and probably just had premium the last two times, too.
Gto wizard has free preflop ranges
Right, I think how I phrased this was pretty confusing. I agree that you have a heuristic to start with. (This can't actually be false; it doesn't matter what people do, it always follows some distribution, and you have to range someone if you react to what they do, so you have to use some heuristic.)The only point I was trying to make is that the ranges of people are so drasti
Yeah show down is a definite data point that helps weith ranges.
Also you're whole thing with agression is spot on. Thats' exactly what Miller goes into. If your standard pool is a bunch of loose passives, there's a good chance that if you get a few early raises, they're still loose pasisve, but got lucky.
I’m not always in line with other people’s thinking, especially in late position play, but OOP we are the same. Folding AQ all day long & not sure a read could change my mind.
I know the suited part is a big deal to some, but with only being 3% stronger, that’s never a factor to me. I play these hands for high card value, not to make a flush. Breaking from the pack again, but I treat AKo and AKs the same.
In this situation, I am playing AK. Whether I call or 4Bet will be answered by whatever read I have. I don’t think either is a big mistake. And of course, after the flop we have to play poker, always remembering that OOP the check-raise is our friend.
Now, if I asked the same question with pocket pairs, it gets tougher. I have learned to fold 99 & TT, but more likely to play these hands than AQ. Nobody knows how to play jacks, but QQ+ would 4Bet. There’s a lot of ‘it depends’ in this game.
I’d be pretty nitty in this spot, to be honest ... 4bet/get it in with AK and QQ+, folding everything else.
