1/2, $700 deep: KK facing snap 5b jam

Fold and let him show you his rockets as played.

Wouldn't have 4 bet and started talking though.

Fold. It seems at best you re against the other KK.

Yeah, 5bet jam is usually aces. Really important: most people don’t talk during bluffs. But friendly people are often FOS. Why would he tell you the truth? Why couldn’t “the” hand be AKs? Who min 3-bets AA with the blinds and two more players yet to act, and the 5 bet jams? It seems spewy. Because Venice and Javanewt say fold, I say call. I don’t think it’s ever wrong to call ai with KK pre unless V is a confirmed passive.

Friendly players who told me they have it have ALWAYS had it in my experience. I finally have started folding.

I wouldn't make an outrageous fold just because they said that but I think it's fine to fold here live, 350 BB vs a non maniac is usually gonna be AA anyway

Small 3 bet also suggest AA as likely

If he really has AA, then it’s just a cooler. KK’s too strong to fold here, snap it in and live with the result.

99% of my table time is M-F 10am to 5pm so a 4 bet is either KK or AA and a 5 bet is 100% AA ( exception drunk person)
QQ rarely gets 3-bet and AK rarely gets raised.

Is the straddle on every hand? 140bb is fine with KK but if this is 350bb in the normal settings of the game then it gets kinda dicey.

You can still exploitably fold KK at 1/3. A 5 bet allin from a non-lunatic is one such situation. My question is, how does he recognize you if you don't recognize him? Is he lying? If not you should have some hand history with him to base this on, no?

Why the min 3bet with 4 players yet to act if he had AA? Did V make a mistake and overcompensated by jamming? Or did he min bet with a weaker holding like AKo and didn’t want to play the hand oop against hero and so said **** it, I’ll just shove?

In my games, people are FOS all the time here. Why would you show here if it’s a bluff? Because people love showing their bluffs.

I’m just saying, to ever fold KK with 120 BB, you gotta have a read. Talking after a big bet is a classic tell. So I get hero can fold KK here.

Looking forward to results, OP

I have literally no clue. Maybe he seems me playing every night. I don’t recollect playing with him lol.

Thanks for the inputs all!

Results:

I folded. V slams QQ on the table like it was the nuts. Asked me “AK?” I nod my head in shame, lol. Tells me “good fold.”

It happens. Does he realize that if you did have AK and knew he had QQ, you should have called?

The setup is bad here, and I swung my thoughts because of it ... also saw the results.

Game is 1-2-5 and you have 700 ... I'm very unlikely to fold KK for that. QQ or AK is much more possible.

If it was 1-2 and you 3bet to 50 and he shoved ... that's different and I'd think a lot about folding KK. The fact he overbet shoved flop twice, and had KK once would also lean me towards calling. Also the read on CO being very loose would worry me that BTN thinks that and is acting on it.

I know a few people who basically never cold 4bet at live 2-5 or less, and hands like this are probably the reason. I think IP your size is fine, but not sure about it OOP. It's good to get action from QQ/JJ that people are overplaying, but they often just call and then fold. Maybe just shove over the 50 ... it seems a lot, but at least we can't punt like this and it protects our AK that doesn't love being OOP (and bad players are way more likely to shrug call QQ-TT).

The table talk is very bad, given the results (this is one point where it's good to be results orientated). Hard to be certain if he's delusional, or very good at BS, but I'd heavily lean toward the former.

FWIW I'd also show KK here and keep telling him nice bluff all night.

probably only like a 40-45bb (5$ bb so like 200$) error to fold (signif higher if he has qq with any kind of frequency).

this is why u want to be careful about overadjusting bc reads or whatever. would also think snap jam much more likely to be AK than AA lol

See he was telling the truth, he did have it.

Can anyone in this strat forum pull off an FOS bluff while talking like this certainly delusional V? What are the odds illiterat thinks Doc has FOS 5bet QQ while talking twice?

I’ve been burned many times where people said they’d show, then mucked. Many of these people get kicked out of the casino after another 100 violations. I never play deep enough to really worry about getting it all in pre with kk.

I've thought about trying the ridiculous fake tanking hem and hawwing and shove (always the nuts or close) as a bluff and ofc against a competent enough opponent to know that but still haven't had the balls to pull it off though

I think it helps a lot if you believe (wrongly) that you are in front, and I'm not sure if that can be learned.

I wouldn't say the question as presented ... probably wouldn't even say anything or even look at V much with KK ~125bb deep, just sigh and call and then look at the Q on the flop.

If I did ask a question, I'd make sure V knew what was being asked so something like "Do you really have aces?" or "I'm only losing to aces, am I really that unlucky?"

I also never ask the other person to show, but my understanding from people that often do is that saying "yes" is more a sign of weakness (again, I doubt it in this case -- assuming V thought he was in front).

I've def. been bluffed a lot, and was a much worse player when I didn't get bluffed as much. I've seen "live things" that didn't mean what I thought ... also shrug called it off and been crushed, because I thought it was too far a deviation from correct/normal strategy to do anything else.

In general I swing back and forth on how useful live reads are, esp. at 1-2 where people often don't know what they don't know and using correct strategy and looking at their betting patterns are so profitable.

They take up a lot of energy/time where you constantly have to be paying attention to how people act so you can see how that compares to how they are acting now when you are in the 1.5k spot. And while there've been a few spots where I could deviate a huge amount, there are also spots like this where the bad player is very convincing because he doesn't know any better.

Somewhat curious how you got this number ... esp. with the 165 out there.

But I think we can agree that V doesn't have a solver range here (GTOwiz rough range is AK,KK,QQ pure and then 25% AA,A5s. and 75% JJ, with 5-10%ish of 88,77,66) ... and it then thinks BB with KK is a +58.9bb call.

Wouldn't be shocked if V had QQ+ pure (H is 50%, not counting the 165), the real question is what else does he have.

To be fair me saying it was a punt to fold is also a bit unfair, for similar reasons, although I meant it more in general terms of "don't fold KK preflop unless you are 300bb+ deep and/or have amazing reads, and this wasn't either of those things"

will depend which pre configuration u look at. would recomend several rake structures at least bc the 5b strat from btn is definitely different in a few of them that ive looked at on gtow and the ev of sb call off will be affected as a result. likely closer to 45-50bb but just kind of eyeballed it when i posted that

folding is most definitely a very large punt lol

What is it about me that makes people drag me into threads this way?

I didn't post in this thread because I honestly didn't know what I'd do. My initial gut reaction was "I'm not folding KK pre in this set-up, at 1/2 or 1/3", but then reading everyone's posts saying it's always AA served to talk me off the ledge before I jumped.

I can't remember ever FOS 5B'ing QQ. I do remember 3B-folding QQ facing a $200 4B next to act while sitting $500 deep. I'm friendly with V, who told me after the hand he had AK, and would have called if I 5B-jammed.

I don't know if a 5B jam with QQ would have been FOS in my spot. I certainly thought V was capable of 4B'ing AK. I just didn't feel like coin-flipping for $500.

That's why, more than once, I've said on this forum I'd almost rather jam AK than QQ. At least AK makes it less likely we're up against AA/KK, and we're okay flipping with QQ. With QQ, we're just hoping to be up against AK.

I once cold-5B-folded with JJ in a 2/5 game. I'm friendly with the dealer, who's a reg in another room. He openly mocked me for my stupidity after the hand. We're friendly enough and I'm thick-skinned enough that it didn't affect his tips.

I have tried to use table-talk to get someone to fold in spots like this, where I jammed thinking I had the best hand, but then while my opponent was tanking I realized how terribly wrong I was. My experience trying to talk someone into folding has almost always resulted in them calling. I can only remember one time that I got a guy to fold by telling him it was okay for him to fold.

OP gave us info that he thought was relevant, but I'd need more info / a better read before I had any confidence interpreting V's speech-play. But generally, when someone says they'll show if you fold, they want you to fold, so that would nudge me towards calling.

The exceptions with this sort of thing often come into play when we're friendly with an opponent, and they think they're trying to do us a favor by jamming and letting us off the hook, or telling us to fold. The few times I've been on either side of that situation, it usually back-fired and led to the opposite of the intended result (I told a guy to fold when I had the nuts, he called, etc).

I don't know what to make of V here. Maybe some combination of being stupid and being a d1ck.