99 on Qxx multiway
1/3 NL. I am effective stack versus limper and raiser with about 600. I think CO has about 200 and BTN about 400. Preflop raiser usually raises small and doesn't limp behind much.
UTG+1 limps, LJ raises to 12, CO and BTN cold call, I call from SB with 99, limper calls. I thought about 3-betting. Didn't think raiser had much. Thought there was value in playing it multiway mostly for a set rather narrowing the field and building the pot OOP. Would have 3! TT.
56 in the pot on the flop, which comes Q64,r. Checks to initial raiser who bets 35, CO and BTN fold. I think he may be just cbetting, but not happy about his large flop sizing. He could have a Q, but I doubt he has a higher pp from his preflop sizing. Should I call, raise, or fold? If I continue, what is the plan if it winds up HU to the turn?
16 Replies
hmmm tough.
I don't think any of your options pre and flop are great.
He's leading into 3 follks on flop. Feels unlikely he's doing that with say AJ, and more with a PP or a Queen.
I think I might make a nitty fold here, but can't fault you for peeling one. The big challenge is what ya gonna do when he bets 100 on the turn?
Don't call in the sb. 3b or fold this.
Fold now
Sent from my CPH2653 using Tapatalk
3bet pre
folding is best now. however, if you have a nitty image i think you can get away with a flop CR (making an overpair and Qx call) and then bomb most turns to fold out said overpairs and Qx b/c on a drawless board your hand looks like a face-up set. i doubt he wants to play for stacks with one pair this deep.
Fold preflop. Calling is meh because you cap your range and make it easy for the aggressor to read you when you hit your set. Worst is 3betting. If you 3bet, you have to raise 4x + callers to 70. Then you’re playing 99 oop for a big pot. No thank you.
As played, fold now.
Calling preflop is profitable. My question was if 3-betting is more profitable. The rule about 3! or fold from the SB applies more to HU pots and more to higher stakes. Lol 1/3 players aren't going to read you as hitting a set and fold when you give action. Playing a pp is profitable 5 ways because of immediate odds. Plus people calling with QTo or K8s or whatever aren't going to want to fold when they hit 2-pair. 99 is much better than 44, because you are sometimes good on low flops unimproved. People like to play pps multiway and you probably have the highest one and might occasionally stack someone set over set.
For those saying 3b or fold pre, I definitely get that SB is the worst place to call out of pre, but do you have *any* calling range here?
I would generally call multiway with medium pairs here for set mining here, assuming BB is not overly agressive with 3 betting.
Nothing plays great OOP in Hold Em, but I find PPs play better than say SCs.
The problem with having a calling range in the SB is that the range is super narrow. Are you calling all pps 22-99? That’s probably too wide. Just 88-99? You’re playing your hand face up. In any case, the action doesn’t end with hero after the preflop call. BB and UTG are still to act.
I am calling 22-99, maybe some other hands. I am not calling scs or Axs multiway from the SB. But people won't know that is my range. The chance of a 3! is low and I can sometimes call the 3! multiway. If not, then OK to occasionally fold $12.
Lol, 1/3 players will figure out what your flat calling range in the SB is and exploit it.
I agree with 3bet pre, because you can better define your hand. Calling OOP & playing fit or fold with only 2 outs to improve seems like a weak play to me.
Most of the time when someone bets out multi-way on a flop like this they have a queen. However, a big bet from the raiser could be an AK that missed or 77 maybe where he wants to take it down.
So, there’s a chance you’re ahead, you didn’t think he had much, but there’s no good way to play the turn now? So it becomes a clear fold, unless you want to play the game of chicken with villain.
Preflop call is okay, but once the flop comes Q-high and he bets big, your 99 just isn’t strong enough. Most of the time he has top pair or better. Best move is just fold and wait for a better spot.
Result is I played nitty both streets. I folded the flop. Thought I might have taken it with the best hand with a 3! and cbet on this flop.
I'm fine with preflop.
And I just fold to the cbet this multiway.
ETA: 3betting preflop is an option, but flatting is perfectly fine, imo. Folding seems horribad to me to just a 4x raise with some decent stacks in the mix, a hand that can easily overset (with there really only being one player who can overset us), getting a slight discount, and knowing we'll be going at least 4ways / likely 5ways / possibly 6ways. Other than being OOP, this is the very definition of an awesome setmining spot.
GcluelessNLnoobG
Result is I played nitty both streets. I folded the flop. Thought I might have taken it with the best hand with a 3! and cbet on this flop.
Honestly this all seemed fine to me.
GGs argument about set mining is good, and why call.
On flop, I think I might peel one heads up, but he's leading into 3; at low stakes this is likely to be a pair or better, and all you have is 2 outs, so fold seems fine.
1/3 NL. I am effective stack versus limper and raiser with about 600. I think CO has about 200 and BTN about 400. Preflop raiser usually raises small and doesn't limp behind much.UTG+1 limps, LJ raises to 12, CO and BTN cold call, I call from SB with 99, limper calls. I thought about 3-betting. Didn't think raiser had much. Thought there was value in playing it multiway mostly
Grunch:
Curious if your thought that his pre-flop raise size indicated a weak hand occurred to you pre-flop, or only on the flop?
If you thought his sizing was a tell, then you should definitely raise pre. Even if you're not sure, I think it's generally better to play the SB as raise-or-fold pre, particularly when there's dead money from callers in LP.
99 certainly seems like a hand that would want to 3B-squeeze pre from the SB. We don't mind taking it down pre, and are going to connect with a lot of flops well enough that we can c-bet some and check-call some.
When he c-bets 35 into 56 on Q64rb, that's kind of a large size, so I don't think we should check-raise. We're not supposed to have any 2P combos here, and we can't credibly rep QQ.
If V has JJ or TT, he may not be willing to release yet, and we'll just be guessing about what to do on the turn. He could have a lot of AX combos that will c-bet large, but then shut it down and check back if we just flat call.
I think we can call and play some poker on later streets. Probably checking again on most turns. Definitely checking, and most likely check-calling on a 2, 3, or board pair. Might fold if he barrels on a T, J, K or A.
I might donk on a 9, or any card that brings in a BDFD and also connects with the board in a way that might make us 2P or a straight. So if the turn is a 5, 7, or 8 that puts a BDFD on board, I might donk big, like I'm trying to protect my hand and don't want him to check back.
If we take a turn-donk line, and he calls, we're going to have to barrel for a large size on the river.
For those saying 3b or fold pre, I definitely get that SB is the worst place to call out of pre, but do you have *any* calling range here?
I would generally call multiway with medium pairs here for set mining here, assuming BB is not overly agressive with 3 betting.
Nothing plays great OOP in Hold Em, but I find PPs play better than say SCs.
If I was going to flat here, it would be with a hand that could be 3B but hates getting 4B. That range might be JTs-KQs, TT, JJ, and the not-as-good suited aces.
Basically I like hands that have nut-making potential and can check-call a c-bet on a lot of flops, and can make decently strong TP or 2P hands.
Set-mining has its place, but I don't like doing it in set-ups like this, where the late-position callers are on shorter stacks, and we'll be playing OOP and multi-way post-flop.
It's hard to realize our equity from OOP and multi-way, and 99 is a hand that will often have us guessing about what to do post.
Like, what are we doing facing a c-bet and a flat call on JsTs9h? We're rarely ahead if we check-raise and someone 3B-jams on us. What are we doing on 763rb? Check-folding to a big c-bet?
