2/5/10: Bink the nuts $2k deep and facing a PSB
Saturday night, juicy 2/5 table.. I turn $500 to $2k when this hand happens..
UTG ($300) str $10,
UTG1 ($500) limps,
Main
Agreed with poster who said nitty OAM is never folding 2 pair nvm a flush, and btn or bb could easily have bottom set. There’s 270 BB in the pot, auto shove.
I feel a call induces more spazz than a shove 4ways.
I don’t hate the shove though.
I really like your call OTF btw. Personally, I would check this most of the time as well if there are no leads.
Grunch: OTF, I think flatting is ok, though I don't think worse flush draws fold to a raise. What would you do with QQ? I think I like making it ~$270 here, which is what I'd do with QQ/KK/22/44.On the turn, we have like $1200 left to bet if we just call, and there will be ~2k in the pot? I think we just call, overall I think that is what our range wants to do. But vs someone w
Are we folding if the board pairs and V shoves river ? if so I shove turn.
If we are calling all river action then I'm calling turn so as not to lose V and maybe pick up button call
You can go ahead and never have a flatting range when facing a big bet with action behind you in a multiway pot.If you're ever gonna get frisky with a flat, nut flush with another broadway flush blocker isn't bad hand selection, which is something you might consider if raising boxes out all the promising action. But 1) it's a higher variance option that it sounds like you woul
With this action, and this hand, in this spot, I probably just jam and pray he doesn't find a hero fold. Calling is going to look nutted, whereas when you jam, you could have some bluffs. If the river is another diamond or board-pairing card, that would just suck.I'd rather have an AXdd combo that unblocks some more good flush draws, but V could have KXdd here, very likely KJdd
Ask yourself this question: if you had AA with the Ad here, would you be turning your hand into a bluff and shoving this turn? I would think the answer is probably not, so go ahead and shove here.I don’t think there is any doubt shoving is the best play against Villain. The big question is whether we make more allowing the button to call (or raise) behind us. I don’t think so,
in my experience most players will fold worse flushes to a jam at these stacks except for kx flushes. i doubt anyone has a set. so id just call.
He just potted 4 ways in a big pot 400bb eff. Count to 20 and say all in, this is always the Kdd.
Hard to believe this is a set, as why would he bet large now when the flush comes in, but not on the flop to charge the flush draws For this particular type of player it doesn't make sense. Something like KJdd, JTdd, or KTdd fits the pattern. could the BB player have 44/22 Perhaps OP has detected a physical tell that the other players in the hand have checked the fold box and a
I like a shove. Looks more as if you have the naked Ad in your hand. Flat is OK, but I don't think you get much more on the river, especially if another diamond hits.
I don't see many people calling a small bet on the flop with AAd and then shoving ~2k with it on the turn, hoping for folds or to hit a 15%er.Sure, if we are looking for bluffs random AdX hands that called flop are the obvious ones ... but how often do we get here with that? Why did we just call the flop, why would we then decide that the best thing to do is bluff shove turn?I
In general if you’re ever not sure what to do with the nuts and an SPR anywhere near 1 I would default to ripping it in.
I would shove. Don't want to let sets draw cheaply. Too many cards to kill the action or possibly beat you. Any diamond and any card getting paired.
you said this guy is an old asian nit or something? Easiest jam of your life. These guys will snap call with way worse than king flush. Like probably any flush. He's telling you he LOVES his hand, make him pay. There's also a non 0% chance he turned a goofy set, 2 pair, straight flush draw etc and will definitely try to chase. Nobody slides out a stack of green+ and then just l
It happens, sometimes, if only by accident 😉For sure, it's a pretty unique spot ... but I usually start by trying to think about what my range looks like and when in the hand I'd want to bluff more/less. More earlier, and more vs. small bets, and even more with a small bet and a call (calling means more calls, raising means we squeeze the person who bet). Also if we can stack
Agreed with poster who said nitty OAM is never folding 2 pair nvm a flush, and btn or bb could easily have bottom set. There's 270 BB in the pot, auto shove.
Thanks for the replies, all!
Results:
Hero tank-shoves, fold, fold, V quickly folds.
Sometimes you only win 120 straddles off your opponents, even with the nuts 🤷♂️
I think how much additional EV you could have possibly squeezed out of your opponents (which is maybe possible with specifically your combo of the nuts + the nuts redraw + the third nuts blocker) has to be weighed against how excited / terrified your vibes feel around winning / losing the max $2k deep.
We'll let it slide this once, just so long as it doesn't happen too often.
For sure, it's a pretty unique spot ... but I usually start by trying to think about what my range looks like and when in the hand I'd want to bluff more/less. More earlier, and more vs. small bets, and even more with a small bet and a call (calling means more calls, raising means we squeeze the person who bet). Also if we can stack off to a 3bet, or should fold. Also the value
I think a lot of people flat call the flop donk as hero, with some hands that could be raised, because people don't know what this donk bet means, or what a raise here means, or what happens next. They flat because they don't know what else to do, so they kick the can down the road and hope to see a turn.
Other than JJ, how comfortable is hero raising, if V could be donking with 44/22 and wants to 3B if we raise? I don't even know what the hell the 1/4 pot donk is supposed to rep, given hero's actual hand. It's JX? What else makes sense, for this size? Wouldn't JJ/44/22 go bigger?
OP's opponents may or may not think he would / should raise with those good but not amazing hands.
And if hero does NOT raise, they may still give him credit for having a hand that could have raised flop, but didn't, and now he's jamming turn for value or as a bluff. Anything we do might seem credible or FOS depending on what hands our opponents have, and thereby block us from having, or don't block us from having.
We have the Ad in our hand. Our other card could literally be any other card in the deck. We could credibly be jamming for value or as a bluff, because no one else can have the nuts, nor can they have the one card that can actually bluff profitably in this spot.
I've called AdKx HU here, but I'm not sure I call it on this flop to the donk+call ... would much rather raise it TBH. Even without the call I'd rather raise, it's not a great spot with two people behind to call and hope it's HU (as I'd want to be bluffing turn NFD into a range that's mostly not flushes).Which is likely some of the problem ... I don't think my range is that big
For the sake of discussion, let's start with the fact hero actually does get to the turn. Can the V's positively rule out that he may have flatted the flop with some AdXx, when the donk was for 1/4 pot, and hero was getting almost 6:1 on a call?
So if you're hero, your range isn't that big on turn. Assuming hero's range is the same as yours, we should just flat with our nuts to protect our non-nuts, and we just don't have any raises, for value or as a bluff?
If we don't have that big a range that gets to the turn, what non-nut hands are we protecting? And do we need to be balanced that way, flatting with the nuts so we can also flat with some other value combo that isn't nutted?
My argument for calling the flop with AdXx was so we could rep the nuts on another diamond. We didn't plan on V snatching the betting lead with a PSB, but here we are.
We may only have a 15% chance of making the nuts with AdXx, but we have to have a boat-load of fold equity here. Especially when it is multi-way, and we did over-call the flop, and we have the nut-blocker, and we're jamming over a PSB from someone who also flatted the flop, and probably has a flush.
And fer cryin' out loud, we don't have AdXx. We have AdQd. How do we not get it in, even if we think V thinks we have no bluffs, or conversely, with AdXx, precisely because we think V thinks we have no bluffs?
If we want to be balanced, I think the way to do it is to jam AdXx and AdXd, not flat with the nuts and with our non-nutted value, when that non-nutted value is very likely going to have to fold if the river doesn't improve our hand, and probably won't get paid if it does.
I think some people go HAM with bare Ad in not quite the same spot, a lot more than in this spot ... although there's for sure an argument that I'm the only idiot thinking about it that way and you can shove here as most people won't realize there's a difference.I mean...we agree it's a unique spot. I can't agree that people go HAM here less than they do in some less unique spo
JJ is literally the only hand I can think of that gets to the turn the way hero did and doesn't raise, but also can't find a fold. I'd hate myself for getting here with JJ the way hero did.
Imagine it. Try to think of a value hand for UTG2 that we beat. I got as far as 99, and that's it. Now imagine a scenario that ends with 99 paying JJ off on the river, that doesn't involve the board pairing.
The range of hands that want to flat here seems like it would be so small it's not worth talking about. If we want to flat with JJ, okay, fine. I still think we can jam AXdd and AdXx.
I can also understand, and can get behind, the idea of "I'm pretty sure V is never/rarely folding, so shove turn because we have the nuts"
NOW you're inside my head.
I think this comes down to the notion that it's okay for us to be unbalanced here, because V is so unbalanced. What he's doing makes no sense. Our response doesn't need to make sense either.
The more I look at this - my guess is BB had JX, and UTG2 had KXdd. JX hates the turn. KXdd loves it. If V can find a fold with KXdd when we jam, good for him.
I want to make clear (if earlier posts didn't) that I'm not saying you should never flat, just like I'm not saying you should only 3b-or-fold pre. I just think it's helpful to identify when something is the default play and have a framework for understanding when and why to deviate from it. Again, AQdd here is exactly such a hand to consider it with, but...
I can also understand, and can get behind, the idea of "I'm pretty sure V is never/rarely folding, so shove turn because we have the nuts"
Apart from the variance factor, this is the main reason I'm defaulting to shove in practice. I think when you have the nuts against someone this nutted, you just want to secure the cooler.
We can talk in circles all day about whether they call down lighter facing a shove now vs one on the river, but we can't ever really know and I think it takes a certain burden of reasoning to overcome daring them to fold the second nuts + taking an action that COULD at least have protection/bluffs in it + not exposing yourself to a river card.
For as frisky as I can get with value hands, I'm not flatting AA against someone with a 2% 4b range, I'm not flatting top set when a passive fish overbets, etc. If it's a spot where I'd be pissed about having the 5th nuts, I'm speedrunning stacks in with the actual nuts.
Not sure what to make of villain snap folding though, lol, maybe the reads were wrong or maybe I am once again exposing my middling ability at interpreting HH reads.
V was OOL / FOS. He FAFO'd.
.To be fair, how often do you see a hand play out this way, specifically meaning the BB donks for around 1/4 pot into four opponents on the flop, then checks turn, and some rando pre-flop limp-caller snatches the betting lead with a PSB?It's not like it's a spot people study so they're prepared when it happens. So, conceivably, hero might flat the flop with AdAx, rather than an
I disagree with the hand being a weird spot that poker players have no idea to study. There are all sorts of strategy modules, etc. that deal with how to respond to multiway donkbets.
I know strong pros who would definitely pull the trigger on raising this multiway small flop donkbet with a high quality draw. It's not a complicated concept for strong players who understand multiway theory and donkbet theory.
I disagree with the hand being a weird spot that poker players have no idea to study. There are all sorts of strategy modules, etc. that deal with how to respond to multiway donkbets.I know strong pros who would definitely pull the trigger on raising this multiway small flop donkbet with a high quality draw. It's not a complicated concept for strong players who understand multi
It's not simply the flop donk from BB that makes this spot weird. It's the totality of the flop donk, so multi-way, with multiple callers, followed by the flop donker checking turn, and another player then taking the betting lead with a PSB, when we have the nuts.
The point of the thread is what to do on the turn, not what to do on the flop.
Love ya Doc, but this isnÂ’t any sort of unicorn hand in a LAG recreational 2-5 game. BB having AJ, V having small nonSF diamonds, H having nut diamonds, and BU something like A4 w/a 3fd, and it playing out like this is standard.
It's not simply the flop donk from BB that makes this spot weird. It's the totality of the flop donk, so multi-way, with multiple callers, followed by the flop donker checking turn, and another player then taking the betting lead with a PSB, when we have the nuts.
The point of the thread is what to do on the turn, not what to do on the flop.
Turn isn't the major decision point. Flop is the major decision point.
I would give more consideration to flatting if we were heads up on the turn. With two players behind, i'm jamming.
This is live 2/5.
This is top pair/set/Kdx all day, more importantly giving players behind you a chance to enter but most importantly by just calling we give opponent another chance to spaz river in a bloated pot. call turn, i’m snap calling any river and if a scare card does come.
lets say he has a set and a 4th diamond comes, they often still have river or call.
My default heuristic with nutted hands is to get the money in as soon as reasonable.
Obviously it's dependent on players, hand, board, etc., but if you're really struggling one way or another get it in sooner rather than later.
This is live 2/5.
This is top pair/set/Kdx all day, more importantly giving players behind you a chance to enter but most importantly by just calling we give opponent another chance to spaz river in a bloated pot. call turn, i'm snap calling any river and if a scare card does come.
lets say he has a set and a 4th diamond comes, they often still have river or call.
This is pretty terrible thinking and advice imo.
This is the problem. Early streets are always more important than later streets.
If you play poorly preflop, you end up in silly flop spots.
If you play poorly on the flop, you end up in silly turn spots.
You will play infinitely more preflop spots than you will play flop slots. You will also play infinitely more flop spots than you will play turn spots.
In this hand, Hero had a hand that was strong enough to raise the flop, but he didn't pull the trigger.
Now he got to the turn and is confused on how to get maximum value for his hand.
The truth is that he would have easily got max value on his hand if he just raised the flop (which was an obvious flop raise IMHO)
Maybe try not to have the hard-on be so obvious.
This is the problem. Early streets are always more important than later streets.If you play poorly preflop, you end up in silly flop spots.If you play poorly on the flop, you end up in silly turn spots.You will play infinitely more preflop spots than you will play flop slots. You will also play infinitely more flop spots than you will play turn spots.In this hand, Hero had a ha
BB donked into five opponents and already got a call before action gets to us. Even though he used a small size, that's usually going to be a real hand, and the caller should have at least JX, or a worse flush draw, meaning we may have two fewer outs.
The pot is $540 when action gets to us. If we raise, what sizs are we raising to, and what are we doing if he 3B's? We're only starting $2k deep. Are we calling off a 3B jam?
