I’m bleeding in the SB playing raise or fold. Should I just limp?

Where did you get the idea you shouldn't limp behind in the SB? You don't want to always be building the pot OOP. Usually, I would raise OOP KQ, AJ+, 88+, suited broadway, and T9s/98s thrown in partly for deception. Mainly you should fold some junk in the SB. Most people are limping behind with anything in the SB. If it is 1/3, you should be folding a lot, but mostly people don't fold anything. At 1/2 or 2/5, you are getting a better price. At 2/3, you should probably limp behind ATC at that price.

On Crush Live Poker, Bart says 3! or fold from the SB, but that is usually against a late position raise with no callers in a 2/5, 5/10, or 10/20 game.

Sb limped pot I'm playing all pocket pairs, suited aces, suited Broadways, probably most offsuit Broadways, suited connectors. If we're being tight then maybe you fold some of the weaker suited stuff (eg J5s, 84s)
Not sure where raise/fold comes from but I get that can be a useful filter for maintaining disciplined hand selection.
Oh I see...facing a raise yeah that makes more sense to raise or fold. But some hands could play well as a call against a tighter passive player.

If it is very unlikely the BB is going to raise after a world of limps, I pretty much have the same overlimping range in the SB as I do on the Button (and somewhat ditto regarding facing a small raise which will undoubtedly go very multiway, with this thread no doubt inspired by the recent thread where some are somehow loladvocating raise versus folding 99 vs a small raise and multiple callers). Admittedly, this may be somewhat leaky as IO vs RIO do get a lot more sucky OOP (and I do somewhat tighten up with the bottom of my range versus not-as-horrible limpers). But with a discounted price (a small one at 1/3 NL but a fairly massive one at 1/2 NL), one of our main goals at LLSNL should be seeing a cheap flop with lottsa lolbad opponents who are capable of making massive mistakes postflop (noting I'm typically attempting to see a cheap flop with north of 40% of hands on the Button).

ETA: If you suck terribly in multiway limped pots OOP, then folding speculative hands here in the SB is probably better than seeing a flop. But even just a ~nutmining strategy here (don't put any money in postflop unless we flop ~nuttish) would probably be profitable (and fairly easy to play).

GcluelessNLnoobG

How are you account for live losses specific to SB? Eg. comparing them to what?

Raise or fold is more for HU, AIUI if you make a bunch of robots limp then let the some robots pick what to do they start thinking about limping too.

Your range seems _very_ tight. Even against most 1-2 player's open range, when they also have a limp range, in MP or even EP you can 3bet wider than that.

Getting bored is a thing, and an image of folding SB a lot for $1 isn't great.

I would def. include small PP, and A9s down.

At most 1-2 tables where BB rarely raises you can have a strat. where you overlimp some "random" suited hands and pocket pairs that would be folds if BB was competent ... but you have to account for those extra $1s ... and account for when you overlimp and then lose a small pot. Both of those things are v. difficult to do live. On the other side raising and taking down a $12 pot pre. doesn't look as exciting as winning a big pot but having 100% equity adds up fast, and you'll occasionally get AA/KK vs. a guy who's seen you 3bet a few times and has QQ or whatever.
Also if you do start limping you have to be disciplined about the difference between J9o and J9s etc. (though from your raising range that might not be a real concern).

The majority of your continuing range is going to be for a complete.

What hands you can profitably complete is highly divergent (maybe the most divergent spot?) based on the particulars of your game, especially rake and blind structure. For example, the smaller SB size in a 2/5NL / 25nl game matters quite a bit here.

For that reason, you'll have to do your own homework for your own game. Here's a recent post I wrote on how.

No good answer. See the hands I posted from the SB on 2+2. I won big pots ip and lost the biggest ones in the SB. Maybe seeing patterns where it's just variance. Maybe because I don't know how to play the SB.

Let me think about the responses...

I'm actually almost a little confused by the OP - you're talking about facing limps from the SB? Unless the BB is significantly more aggressive than the passive table that keeps giving you limps on the SB, you can complete very wide being given excellent odds.

Your post reads a lot more like the decision you might face after an open and one or more calls, where 3-bet or fold with that range seems within the realm of reasonable.

A lot of fish complete ATC here, which is certainly too much, but you definitely don't need to raise-or-fold as you're protected both by the usually passive BB and the fact that there is a field of limpers to potentially call a BB raise. I'd focus more on the hands that are easy folds: any significantly unconnected offsuit cards, especially with a low spot card (e.g. K3o which I suspect a huge majority of actual LLSNL fish are calling pure with) - focus on folding things that are likely to flop second-best and completing with hands that flop straights, flushes, sets, or big draws. I would probably look at BB defending range as a starting point.

Just remember if you're playing 1/2 and completing 5 ways to the flop, you can x/f 90% of flops and it's profitable if you average the starting pot on the other 10%.

I rarely limp and often get myself in hot water opening too wide from SB. I'm trying to just be very very linear in general. Unless I'm at a table of thinking players that can fold AJ pre in which case I'll 3-bet small SCs and such some of the time, and only if I'm shorter stacked so I can setup a commitment spot postflop.

Completing from the sb with a mediocre hand like J9o or J8s is fine. Raise or fold is more when facing a raise.

On table 1, I’m always raising 99 facing multiple limps, down to 77, looking to scoop rake free rather than set mine against loose passives with medium stacks in a high rake game. Mucking 66. Should I raise 66 too? Complete the SB with 22-66? Table 2 probably the same

Most of the raise or fold thought process is more of a warning not to play weak hands from the worst position at the table. I think a call is fine with a hand that you could raise. However, if you have a marginal like 9Ts or AJo, it’s best to fold, rather than call & play fit or fold.

So, if you could raise it’s ok to call sometimes, but if you can’t raise, you can’t call.

If I'm calling in sb, I'm playing small ball poker, postflop playing 2p+ and nfd+ only.

If we are opening/3betting preflop in sb, we have initiative, we can take it down with a bet or with a hand. In the event we get called with a cbet, we can check turn, evaluating opponents hand strength while playing our cards/range.

Or we can check range especially in multiway pots

My opening range goes up thru the roof if theres a huge fish in game. Iso raising huge.

I feel people still really, and I mean REALLY underestimate just how important position is in this game. Playing from the SB is the nut low of all events, I hate it. I'd rather steal from the BTN with 72o than 3bet from the SB with KQo. People just have such impunity to float, trap, chase, stab with random pairs because you checked, it's the worst. Implementing a robust x/r strategy will normalize their ranges and keep people from autobetting when things slow down. You want to put the fear of god into anyone who dares try and take a pot off you just because you checked. I promise after 2, maybe 3 x/r's everyone will completely freeze up and then you'll be able to get to some rivers with a wide range from the SB rather than trying to play a tight range and hope for the best.

Now with the range you mentioned consisting of TT+, yes we're going to go ahead and 3bet those because we arent too worried about getting outdrawn postflop. This is also why we should be checking HU OOP a lot regardless of where we raised from, for all the aforementioned reasons above. Condition them to playing pot control vs you so you can actually realize some equity.

Sounds to me like you're overestimating the value of position.

Even to the extent I halfway see the point in comparing RFIing 72o OTB vs 3bing KQo in the SB, it's a point about people underestimating the importance of their opponent's range width. (In which case, it's actually a point about people actually slightly underestimating the value of SB's slight preflop positional advantage over BTN?)

But all else being equal, no, KQo OOP isn't worse than 72o IP. I've never transposed hand values across positions this way, but I'd estimate KQo OOP is roughly as valuable as QTo IP? Just talking in terms of equity and realization anyway. KQo OOP will still outrank QTo IP for some mixed plays just by virtue of blockers and combo control.

Raise/fold works vs strong players, but in loose-passive games you can print value just limping wider. Don’t torch chips bloating pots OOP.

So I felt pretty dumb after I saw this in my range, which answered some of my questions. Maybe I should do my homework before I ask question?

SB
Open or 3-bet TT+, AQs+ (shallow-stacked, no callers, or deep-stacked tight-aggressive table). Or call 22-99, A2s-AJs, 87s+, suited broadways (deep stacked loose-passive table or multiway pot)

In practice I'm open-betting 88+ on a loose-passive table, maybe also 77, and folding smaller pairs, when I guess I could just limp them?

Honestly, limped pots in the SB are just tough to play because you're oop without much info on your opponents. I feel like raising just puts me more in control of a hand that's going to be difficult to play post-flop

Unless people are paying attention they are used to seeing (and having) _very_ wide ranges from the SB in limped pots, so it's not like they have a lot of info. on you.

Even if they notice you are folding sometimes for $1, they almost certainly don't understand ranges and esp. the HU/multiway characteristics of hands ... so will assume you're always playing high cards or that you just got unlucky and had J2o or something.

Also _you_ are paying attention, and they don't understand balance etc. ... so you'll have a better idea of what their bet sizes mean, etc.

Your skill vs. them won't turn 96o into a call, esp. with the rake, but it should help a huge amount when you have 66 or A4s, 98s or whatever.

And to be clear ... I've had similar problems. After I started "studying properly" I studied GTO open ranges and I played them rigidly for at least 6-18 months. But not completing $1 and seeing players punt 100bb into a 5.5bb pot when I would have flopped the nuts with 86s or whatever for 0.5bb has a way of changing your mind 😉.

#TheyDidntDoTheMath

Im not saying KQo < 72o based upon position, I'm just describing which one is easier. Live players are so ridiculously inelastic your bet size and their calling frequency might as well be irrelevant. They'll call just because they have the btn, and because they think every hand is just a flip until you see the flop anyway. So now you've got KQo on a J92s flop, what do you do? Well if we were IP we'd know what to do, range bet and then size the turn to cap them. But OOP this is almost hopeless. Their call behind tendency doesnt really tell you anything about the quality of their hand, and if they improve on the river you have to bet to find out where you're at, because if they call you lose, if they raise you lose, and if they fold you had the best hand with King high.

First I have to agree with Javi, even skilled players will downplay the power of positional advantage/disadvantage.

I have a limping and calling range in the SB vs certain configurations. Set mining or suited As vs passive players that will allow me to realize my equity.

Raise/fold SB works online but live 1/2 you’re torching money doing that every time. Limp wide on the bingo tables, iso the right spots, and just stay disciplined OOP.. don’t need to reinvent the wheel.

At 1/2 versus several limpers in the SB, I would generally raise about 10% of my hands, generally raising large OOP and don't mind taking the pot preflop. You could raise up to 20% of hands. I would limp behind about 50% of hands and fold about 40%. I would limp behind much wider than pps, Axs, and scs, all of which you could raise in some situations. You are OOP, but you are getting a discount, playing versus capped ranges, and there will often be big pots by the river.

I would prefer to raise light with scs, small pps, etc. from the BTN or CO than OOP from the SB.

This response is approximately as far off as all the others, just in the opposite direction.