5/10: JJ facing preflop action
This is a relatively standard preflop spot, but I am curious to hear what people would do.
5/10 full ring.
H starts the hand with ~2000.
V1 is the closest I have ever met (live) to an actual TAG, we have played quite a bit together and respect each other. ~800.
V2 is relatively new to me, but appears to be well known to some other players and dealers as well. All of them seem to respect him a lot, most probably a pro. Covers.
Fish limps in EP
V1 in HJ makes it 40
V2 OTB 3bets to 120
H wakes up with JJ on the SB and ...
14 Replies
Well if this were 1/3 it's easy fold.
Maybe it's a spot to cold 4bet in 5/10 assuming most people on btn here light 3bet. 400 seems a good number if that's the case.
Raise $300
V1 likely goes away & V2 might fold also. Thinking players know a raise from the small blind means business.
Given descriptions ... do what solver says.
Advanced Cash Game Strategy 6max 200bb
HJ open
BTN 3bet
SB ... folds 55% 4bet the rest of JJ. TT folds about 85%, QQ is a pure 4bet.
GTOwiz
100bb (I don't have access to 200bb)
HJ open
BTN 3bet
SB ... folds 96% 4bet the rest of JJ (fold=0 EV and raise=-0.01 EV 😉. Again, QQ is a pure 4bet and +1.3bb.
Given descriptions ... do what solver says.
Advanced Cash Game Strategy 6max 200bb
HJ open
BTN 3bet
SB ... folds 55% 4bet the rest of JJ. TT folds about 85%, QQ is a pure 4bet.
GTOwiz
100bb (I don't have access to 200bb)
HJ open
BTN 3bet
SB ... folds 96% 4bet the rest of JJ (fold=0 EV and raise=-0.01 EV 😉. Again, QQ is a pure 4bet and +1.3bb.
Does the initial limper change anything? I.e., makes V1 a bit looser, or anything like that?
I don't play this high, or with these good of opponents usually, but 4!/f (to V2, ldo) to 380-390 can't be that bad, right?
I don't like to 4b this spot - I would probably call this. The EP limp changes things slightly imo - 4bing is a nightmare if they call it or jam. We're really just hoping to 4b and they fold, but you're risking a lot of money relative to what you'll be winning when they fold.
Pretty standard 4bet spot vs pro 3bet on the btn, nothing wrong with 4bet/folding, its just that we shouldnt have any flats in our range here.
The only way i can see flatting here is if limper is a massive whale then its probably more profitable to call to let the whale in but he would have to be very very bad for me to consider flatting and playing JJ oop here with no initiative and capping my range in theory.
I raise to 420. I’m feeling okay about getting it in with V1 for 80bb. If V1 folds and V2 5!…I’m folding
Pretty low-EV spot. I’d pretty much always 4-bet here though ... it’s quite alright for the image to be aggressive when the EV is very close.
-> 4bet to 360ish.
4B to $300 and go from there.
4 bet call a jam. If called jam most flops possibly all flops but I’m unsure if a computer wants to protect JJ here. If you’re up against an actual TAG and not a NIT then calling the jam. TAGS know how to play well and are capable of jamming AKs and off suit with at least some frequency. NITS don’t.
Does the initial limper change anything? I.e., makes V1 a bit looser, or anything like that?
Extra players (and larger than robot sizes) always make robots tighter. That's maybe not true if you give them human limping ranges. But without work to manipulate the ranges I wouldn't be shocked if a solver as SB pure (or very close to it) folds JJ.
Given some of the other advice here, continuing with GTO wizard:
If/when you cold 4bet JJ...
HJ basically shoves AA/KK/AK and folds everything else.
If HJ shoves then BTN only calls ~75% of KK (with assumed EV of -0.03bb) and all AA. Pure folding everything else.
If HJ folds then BTN shoves AKs/KK, ~25% of AA, ~50% of AKo and then pure calls all pairs that get here and AQs/A5s. Then calls the bits of AJs/ATs/KQs that get there. And calls the rest of AA/AKo.
And from a shove from either H pure calls it off with JJ (again, at 100bb).
Extra players (and larger than robot sizes) always make robots tighter. That's maybe not true if you give them human limping ranges. But without work to manipulate the ranges I wouldn't be shocked if a solver as SB pure (or very close to it) folds JJ...
...And from a shove from either H pure calls it off with JJ (again, at 100bb).
Huh... That's surprising to me, considering the grossly different stack sizes between V1 and V2. (And H.)
I'd be OK calling off V1 for 80 bigs, and I advocated a 4! size where a 5! from V1 reopens the action, hoping that if V2 saw our 4! size and commitment to calling off V1, yet still 5!'d, we'd then really know we were beat. But the solver is indifferent to which V shoves? Interesting. Thanks!
Thanks all for the feedback.
Before seeing the post from illitterat, I also considered 4bet to be the standard play, although we are very close to the bottom of our 4bet range.
It is quite interesting how often the solvers fold in this configuration though. To be honest, I am not sure how accurate/reliable multi-way solvers are, but here they provided some good food for thought at the very least.
As for flatting, against anyone half-decent, this is just not an option, imo.
Flatting maybe saves you money if V1 4B's and then V2 jams. Otherwise if V1 overcalls you're just set-mining with a capped range. Cold calling 3B's OOP is seen as fishy for good reasons.
