8/16 QQ and some more LAGs
Trying to dial up the aggression, but still wrestling with when to back off. In general it seems like this was the pot I wanted, but there are just so many decisions that could have been mistakes.
V1 and V2 are both Asian LAGs. Hard for me to get a real read on how skillful they are, but not terrible although they do love to limp (including open limp) and generally are very wide pre, while being decently aggressive post. I have never seen V1 limp-3b before.
OTTH:
V1 limps from UTG, V2 calls next to act. CO and SB come along, and Hero looks at Qh Qd in the BB.
Hero raises, V1 3-bets, V2 calls, CO calls, SB folds.
Hero 4-bets (not the cap), V1 flat calls, V2 calls, CO calls.
Flop (17 SB): 8c 7d 5s
Hero bets, V1 raises, V2 calls cold, CO folds.
Hero 3-bets, V1 calls, V2 calls.
Turn (13 BB): 8c 7d 5s 2c
Hero checks, V1 checks, V2 bets, Hero raises, V1 folds, V2 3-bets (uh-oh), Hero calls.
River (19 BB): 8c 7d 5s 2c 6s
Hero checks, V2 bets, Hero calls.
11 Replies
Gross runout. At worst V2 had a monster combo draw OTT and the 6 got him there, if he wasn't already. I lead turn and call raise. River is tough but pot is big so I puke call. V1 probably had small PP, 99 or SCs to LRR pre.
Pre and flop seem fine.
just bet the turn
I mean if you think he’s capable of 3betting turn as a bluff then call river. If he has no bluffs in his range then fold river.
Your hand looks like what it is so he can still bet two pair or a set without fear.
I also don't see the reason for the screwplay on the turn. I also just bet there, but I fold to a raise unless I have reason to think that this is the kind to way overbluff in this spot. Especially if V1 called before the raise; trying to bluff two people on the turn is pretty rare.
I also don't see the reason for the screwplay on the turn. I also just bet there, but I fold to a raise unless I have reason to think that this is the kind to way overbluff in this spot. Especially if V1 called before the raise; trying to bluff two people on the turn is pretty rare.
Yeah, I don't have great justification for checking the turn - at the table I was thinking it would get information from Villains and it definitely turned V1's hand face up but betting is the more straightforward line. I started looking at some solves of limit trees and it's helped me see how crushing of a range advantage I usually have versus loose players and how with such small sizings the equilibrium line is usually to barrel away even from OOP. I think the general threat of large raises in NL is responsible for OOP doing a lot more checking even as the PFR. My next session after the study went very well, but it helped that the table was unusually loose-passive and the guy on my left I swear could not fold pre under any circumstances.
The other heuristic I'm picking up on, especially here, is that it seems like everyone should be seeing a turn very frequently but then giving up to aggression on this street. This sort of makes sense since the bet size doubles, but the hard break is a little surprising - e.g. no one is batting an eye at b-3b V1's raise next-to-act OTF, but you're saying you would fold turn after bet-call-raise.
Add me to the "just bet the turn" camp.
As played I fold river. V2 just kept calling PF and on the flop against two players putting in a lot of action and then 3bet the turn in an 8/16 game. I know the pot is huge but you are never, ever, ever good here.
Add me to the "just bet the turn" camp.
As played I fold river. V2 just kept calling PF and on the flop against two players putting in a lot of action and then 3bet the turn in an 8/16 game. I know the pot is huge but you are never, ever, ever good here.
Unless he’s an absolute maniac in which case you would probably know that by now and it would be obvious
This coordinated flop is far more likely to hit the limpers' ranges than your range. So I would play it more cautiously postflop. Imagine something like this:
On the flop: H checks, V1 bets, V2 calls, CO folds, H calls.
On the turn: H checks, V1 bets, V2 raises, H folds, V1 folds.
I realize in my alternate universe V1 bets the turn instead of checking. Why? Because your passivity leads him to think that you have AK or AQ yourself, and he has no reason to think he doesn't have the best hand. Then V2 coming to life on the turn lets you know where you stand.
One of my general rules is that when they raise the turn, they always have two pair or better. There are exceptions, players who make crazy moves or semibluff with big combo draws. And you want to pay attention to hands you're not involved in to identify these players ahead of time. But I would save myself a lot of money if I just folded my TPTKs and overpairs to turn raises every time.
I know it's hard to do, especially with the very biggest pairs. But your hand is faceup, which is why V2 wasn't deterred by the 4th straight card. You managed to lose the maximum here.
Think of it this way: Everyone's Aces, Kings, and Queens are going to get cracked some of the time. When you're doing the cracking, you want to win the maximum. When you're the one getting cracked, you want to lose the minimum. That's how you beat your opponents in the long run.
In the alternate universe mentioned above, V1 definitely wouldn't bet the turn, and might not bet the flop.
Also, checking the flop in this hand would be terrible.
