ATs, stuck between a donk and a checkraise
1/2 at the Legion hall.
Villain 1 is this guy again. tl;dr he's been a pain in my ass and wallet for a year. Covers.
Villain 2 is a 30ish WG, says he played rugby in college. Don't know much about his game but he looks like he could bench-press a Buick. $300.
Hero is both unlucky and not making the most tip-top reads tonight. Dropped one stack in an Omaha bomb pot and I'm down to $300 on my rebuy.
Preflop: Hero opens A♣ 10♣ to $13 from the button. Both Villains call.
Flop: ($35 after rake) A♠ Q♦ 4♣
V1 checks, V2 donks $20, H calls, V1 checkraises to $65, V2 calls, Hero?
No real idea on V2's donking range. Just when I was thinking I might maybe should have popped it, here comes V1 with a checkraise. But what the hell is he repping? AQ 3-bets a button raise preflop, any other Ace has to fear AQ, so he's either got 44 or bullshit, right? What do I do here, and perhaps more importantly, what are my turn plans?
I just fold here. We have top pair 3rd kicker, V1 is raising multiway and V2 is prepared to continue with the hand. No-one should have AA/QQ/AQ/AK fine, but there's 44, A4s, AJo and probably Q4s. This is the kind of situation where sometimes they show up with K♠T♠ and A8s and we want to stomp a bunny but realistically we're beaten 75%+ of the time, sometimes by both villain hands.
why make it such a weird amount pre? just make it $10
call me a nit all you want but folding to the flop donk is defensible. in my games this is always two pair or minimum TPGK. if you are going to call, understand you are probably drawing, so you better fold the turn to another big bet unless you turn an Ace or Ten or pick up a club draw.
as played turbo fold. youre in last place.
Why such a huge sizing on a button open? I usually open to 10 in most positions and 6 on the btn if I’m first in. Ranges are wide, we don’t get to hammer any equity advantage and there’s no dead money.
I would call the initial donk and definitely fold to the check raise after they both put in more. I think we can be ahead of the donk somewhat often, but it doesn’t appear likely we were this time.
There is no way V2 should have any sort of leading range on this flop so if it gets to showdown and he has A8 or QQ it’s very good to note.
You’re trapped here. Donk + call + check-raise = almost never a bluff at live 1/2. Just fold the flop and save yourself. Even hands like A4 already beat you.
at these stakes donkbets are trash, call for value and raise to bluff. V's x/r is most likely 2pair. If we had an open ender or front door flush draw i'd call.
You know V1 well, but I have no info on him.
If he’s savvy & sees a flop donk bet = weak, you called-didn’t raise = weak —— so check-raise looks strong & villain probably figures to take it down.
Otherwise, he’s got something and/or the donk has something too, so you calling the 3bet is likely a mistake.
My play would have been to raise the donk myself, looking for a ten or a club on the turn to continue the aggression. Not sure what villain would have done as I have no info on him.
As played, you really didn’t use your position and it doesn’t matter what he’s repping if he has a history of making you fold. Some players just play chicken fight every session.
You’re already making turn plans, so I guess you called, but I would surely fold now if you get another bet & a call ahead of you.
My guess is that V2 has some sort of broadway Q, maybe KQ, could be AQ. All they've done is call so far. Which means they're probably not great, but then that means they'll call a bunch of stuff OOP that they should raise instead, like AQ/QQ. And when they hit, they donk. Shrug.
V1 has A4s/44 or air. Ballsy to do this with air, given V2's shown zero signs of having a fold button so far.
Pot is 185, H has ~270 or so back, TP meh kicker and only some BD draws. Tbh, my first impulse was to jam. H can have all the AA/QQ, and they really shouldn't. If H did call tho, they'd have 225 back, pot would be 230, and turn'd probably be a much more palatable call for Vs, versus expecting them to call a flop rip.
If H calls here though, odds are a V will bet enough on turn that H'll have no FE. Plus we still don't have a good idea about V2's range, and postflop stickiness.
Folding AP, getting ready to kick myself for getting bluffed.
1/2 at the Legion hall.Villain 1 is this guy again. tl;dr he's been a pain in my ass and wallet for a year. Covers.Villain 2 is a 30ish WG, says he played rugby in college. Don't know much about his game but he looks like he could bench-press a Buick. $300.Hero is both unlucky and not making the most tip-top reads tonight. Dropped one stack in an Omaha bomb pot and I'm down
Brother, I feel your pain, but... fold facing this action. V1's line is so insanely strong. He's not FOS. At a minimum he's got AQ.
He's probably good enough to flat pre with AQ from OOP when he's got a meathead next to him in the BB. 44 and A4s are also in range.
The problem with calling the flop is that you're never seeing the river barring some strange confluence of unlikely events. More likely, V1 is bombing the turn and putting us all in. If the turn isn't the Kc or Jc, I don't see how we'll have enough equity to continue.
I will admit that the check raise size has me suspicious, but not enough to make me want to continue. If he's FOS, good luck to him. Even if he is, we'd still have to contend with all the AK, AJ, AQ, and A4 in V2's range. And if V2 is holding our outs to beat V1, we're toast.
Turbo fold. Being card dead for a while, this is exactly when you would mentally want to over call and make the most expensive mistakes. In the low stakes game I play nobody donks with less than a 2p. Even if he is FOS in this case for whatever reason, there is another check-raise facing 1 donk and 1 call.
Wouldn't raise this flop, with almost any hand. Can see arguments for A4/44. So I don't think the call caps your range, and in fact your actual hand is far down the list of those I want to put stacks in with. These guys seem laggy but not manaical.
easy fold for me to the x/r without reading about Vs.. sometimes it can be a nit fold to the donk
folding the flop to the lead is really wrong imo. it looks like its worth about ~30$ to continue and should be pretty clear. you are on the button and he overcalls the bb closing the action. this is idk a top 90? percentile hand for u given positions, and the bdfd gives u playability. its also relatively difficult to find many hands u lose to that overcall pre and then dont go for a x/r otf. solver wants to play this as call only for button (makes sense as sb has by far the tightest range here of anyone) - if you're trying to recreate this i used rake free minraise otb and then ai solved to try to replicate relatively loose ranges for oop (i dont believe sb should have a calling range here vs 6.5x given high rake but here we are). solver will still continue with the AT combos with a bdfd though mixes w a9 so it has to be fairly close. it does occasionally use this sort of hand (a8 / a9 w bdfd) as bluff jam so idk man.
tough spot now in practice tbh. it seems like a reasonably clear fold from the action esp vs sb caller, the only thing that gives me pause is that v seems like clicker who's too loose pre and shows a ton of aggression vs weakness. bdfd makes it appealing to continue too. i think your biggest adjustment should be trying to err on the side of passivity when your nemesis is in the hand as he seems to attack it quite a bit. id imagine the difference in call and fold here should be relatively neglible but it wouldnt shock me if the player type described x/rs worse aces or qx or whatever because he doesnt know what to do
i do think its fairly easy for sb to x/r light here as bb should be reasonably weak (wide condensed range pre, v hard for him to actually have 2p+ on this board, people don't really donk this type of board with good hands) and btn can have all kinds of random stuff as he's button and theres a ton of gutshots / weak pairs. i pretty sure the way this guy views poker is also if you just call one you cannot beat tpgk (based on a few of the history hands uve posted in past) so id be really careful about assigning him a super nutted range
i think even if you want to play raises on the flop this is one of the last hands i would think to do it with unless v is an absolute whale or has some kind of very apparent tell / strategy where u can go for all of it with your hand (vs the lead initally)
I don't see anything wrong with your line, and now it's mostly fold. I think its conceivable that V1 is making a play with a backdoor galore type hand like KJss. But A4, 44, maybe AQ sometimes are all more likely. If we were very deep here, maybe we could peel and hope for either a club and that V1 slows down on the turn. But going to the turn there would be $230 in the pot and you have $220 behind, I think V1 open shoves most turns. So calling is just terrible. We could raise - it could be suicide or genius.
If V1 were a maniac who would bluff this position too often, then we can just jam now because V2 has a weaker Ax a ton of the time, and we have the BDFD just in case. But I'd have to be very confident in V1s ability to spew and/or his ability to fold A4/Q4. There are some opponents I would take that line against, but definitely not the average $1/$2 reg.
Shove or fold, and shove only if you're very certain that V1 could have JTs here or is capable of folding A4, because you are the one who could have AA/AQ, and jamming would look nutted. FWIW, if I had AA, calling the donk and then ripping it after the 3! and call is exactly what I would do. We have no incentive to raise donks if we have a nutted hand on a dry board. Once they commit 20%+ of the effective stack, now we want to gii. So if we know V1 would almost always 3! pre with AQ/AA/QQ, and is capable of folding A4, then the only brick wall we pay off is 44. But, V1 is getting a really good price if he has 2 pair and most players in the room probably aren't folding 2p getting 3:1 and possibly better if donkey kong can't fold his trash.
Folding is probably best, jamming is good for your rep but maybe not your pocket, and calling is terrible.
Fold. Don't raise the donk either. You want the donk bettor to keep betting across streets and if he doesn't he's more likely to call you light if you don't raise flop.
...Shove or fold, and shove only if you're very certain that V1 could have JTs here or is capable of folding A4, because you are the one who could have AA/AQ, and jamming would look nutted. FWIW, if I had AA, calling the donk and then ripping it after the 3! and call is exactly what I would do.
Agree that jamming looks nutted, but H has position. They don't *need* to jam flop, and probably wouldn't here with fat value, because villains aren't calling an overpot shove now.
H could wait until turn, or even river to shove given the board. Yeah, AA isn't happy if a K/J/T hits, but that's life. Give Vs another street to stick more money in, and then sigh call knowing they're beat.
Knowing that, if H rips now, they're either a level ahead, or H is bluffing. OOP, yep, rip it. Or stop n go the turn.
Agree, calling is a bad idea.
Edit, as usual, love sub's take on this. I do wonder whether V2 (BB) is keeping V1 (SB) more honest here though, and I expect A4s/44 to overcall button, keep BB in, then see what happens. If we knew V2's tendencies better---and V1 might---I'd feel better continuing in the hand. Mainly for how V2's play might influence V1 versus being concerned about V2's range. All the guy's done is call repeatedly and donked flop for like 60%: V2 doesn't know what they're doing, and H is certainly not going to be able to predict his actions
I raised to $13 because $12 is the standard raise at this table and I'm one better. Also, I'm a
. Plus, it's not as if I have a hard time getting action.
On the flop I ran the gamut from "oh no I have a third-place hand" to "I'll show these bastards who's got the biggest balls at this table!" I settled on treading with caution, because while I might currently be behind, I do have both absolute and relative position and I'm getting 3½-1 on a call.
Turn: ($228 after rake) total brickity brick
V1 checks, V2 checks.
Um . . . this was not what I expected. Green light?
What’s the turn?
sure. bet 30$
8♥ I guess is the brickiest brick?
I raised to $13 because $12 is the standard raise at this table and I'm one better. Also, I'm a
. Plus, it's not as if I have a hard time getting action.On the flop I ran the gamut from "oh no I have a third-place hand" to "I'll show these bastards who's got the biggest balls at this table!" I settled on treading with caution, because while I might currentlyI think I somewhat agree with Submersible about V1 possibly making a play for the pot based on your read and the past history, because he might read your flat call of the V2 donk as weak.
But... I don't know if that means we now have the green light to start seeking thin value. V2 could be ahead of us and slowing down because of the x/r, but that doesn't mean he's folding. I could see a world where we bet, V1 folds, and V2 happily calls. Meanwhile V1 is internally laughing his balls off at what he did to us here.
Starting to hate V1. Really. Screw that guy.
The pot is already too big for our hand and we should be happy to get to showdown, I think.
As for the actual turn card - I wouldn't necessarily rule out any card possibly making V2 aces up. This is partly why I don't really want to bet. We have no idea what his range is here, so let's not start assuming he didn't donk some random AX combo that may have improved.
Yeah, that's the card that doesn't complete any Broadway or wheel draws, doesn't put up a backdoor flush or open-ender.
Still, it makes two pair on A8 or Q8, which are combos we should consider in a range. A 6 or 7 might be less likely to help someone who flopped one pair and has some standards...
$13 is fine pre. I'd never go less than $10 w/ two limpers and would probably make it $15.
Flop is fine, although I might raise the donk bet. You raised pre, take initiative! Calling the raise is fine, too, vs. this guy. Now I take my free card and evaluate. No need to bet and get blown off your hand.
Damn, there's a lot of differing opinions ITT. Watch me take an ill-advised action recommended by precisely nobody:
Turn: ($228 after rake) total brickity brick
V1 checks, V2 checks, Hero bets $85, V1 tank-folds, V2 calls.
Alright, one down and one to go.
River: ($398 after rake) yet another complete turd
V2 donks all-in for $99.
****.
