Syphon maximization with JJJJ while V keeps rambling, did I misplay it?
1/3 NLHE 9 handed
V - fishy white guy in his 20s, very friendly player, looks intimidating but is a really nice guy, sucks at poker. It's hard to describe all the leaks but he's worse than a standard loose passive as he gives off physical tells, he uses bad sizings, he's at that stage of learning where he's heard a few concepts and is trying to apply them but is doing so incorrectly so is actually losing more money than a typical loose passive would lose. He's trying to mix in some x/raising, some donking, but generally defaults to a passive x/call line. VPIP about 80%. UTG. Covers.
---- We have 740$ to start effective ----
V straddles UTG, H sees J♠ J♣ UTG+1 and opens 20, folds back to V who keeps rambling saying "I wish I hadn't straddle when I see this junk" and calls 20.
Flop 40 (720 back)- J♥ J♦ T♦
Check, check, V says "I missed too"
Turn 40 (720 back) - 8♥
V bets 30, we just call, V says "ok ok you got a piece?"
River 100 (690 back) - T♠
V bets 55 saying "cinco de mayo!", I raise to 175...
19 Replies
He's likely never calling any raise without a T, and he's prolly never folding a boat. I just ship it.
I would limp in. At these stack depths also think a very small juicer might be better than a 7x open.
If a BBJ is in play then in order to sleep well at night I'm cool with a flop check back and turn call.
If BBJ isn't in play then I bet the flop small to get the ball rolling / induce mistakes and raise the turn to build a pot.
I mean, I'm rarely this effectively deep in my shorter stacked 1/3 NL game, but in general I think it is probably best to shove river when we have the nuts as I think that will be the most EV line overall. Yes, we'll rarely get called (especially for this sizing), but the times we do will make up for all the times we weren't, I think.
GcluelessNLnoobG
My bad, missed that.
Gasyouwere,imoG
Bigger, maybe 325, can say March 25th is your birthday. 700 seems excessive.
@garick: you think he's calling a shove with a naked T and can't read me as having a J?
@GG: the bad beat would qualify if he has pocket TT - he would win 40% of 38k, I would win 30% and the table would share 30%.
@GG: the bad beat would qualify if he has pocket TT - he would win 40% of 38k, I would win 30% and the table would share 30%.
What I mean is that I'd play it very passively not wanting to blow a runner runner / longshot / etc. off a potential huge BBJ payday. In a no BBJ room I would play it a lot faster.
GbutIsleepverywellatnightG
@garick: you think he's calling a shove with a naked T and can't read me as having a J?
Zeebo Theorem spot. Sure, in today's poker, a good player would easily fold a T there, but this guy isn't a good player.
There's a giant gulf between 320 and 700.
I would hopefully raise more than 175, but even then if this guy can find a fold it'd be because we shipped 7x the starting pot on the river and 4.5x the pot after his bet.
Maybe he's bad enough to call off 700 anyway, but my guess is you get called at least 2x as often if you make it 350. Would even be tempted to shove if we were 500 effective.
Saying all that I've seen people shove here and get paid off by Q9 so wtf do I know.
What I mean is that I'd play it very passively not wanting to blow a runner runner / longshot / etc. off a potential huge BBJ payday. In a no BBJ room I would play it a lot faster.
GbutIsleepverywellatnightG
Not sure the value of bad beat equity. He is not folding TT and not easily folding a straight flush draw. There might be runner runner quads, but not sure if the chance of that is worth playing passively.
I would cbet. He isn't going to believe you have a J and might even bluff, figuring the flop missed you. I would also raise the turn.
On the river, sizing depends on reads of what he has and how he plays. You totally block top boat, but some low stakes players can't fold a boat or straight.
I don’t like the flop check. he could have a lot of draws that don’t fold OTF & OTT.
My line:
Bet flop 1/2 pot
Bet turn 3/4 pot
Bet river 1/2 pot
… sizings may vary depending on his tendencies.
This is one of those hands that no matter what you do, as soon as villain folds, you’ll wish you did something different.
Some players think an all-in is always the nuts, & some think that you must be bluffing if you want them to fold. So, you should maybe have some idea about villain.
A small flop bet doesn’t look strong and might induce a villain raise. Might have made a small turn raise, but your line is fine. In fact, I like what you did on the end: small enough to make V think his ace is good and possibly shove into you.
You gave a good description, but I still think I would know what to do if I knew villain. I would know what he thinks of me and this is not clear in your post.
Always looking to identify mostly regs where I bluff shove & mostly recs where I value shove. Getting maximum value is always the goal, but it’s not always easy & as soon as he folds…. other options seem like they might have been better.
Result:
Spoiler
I make it 175 over V's 55 and he stops talking then 3-bets to 400. I pause for 5ish seconds and then shove for like 280$ more, and he folds showing pocket 55 saying he was trying to bluff me OTR with the 55$ bet.
Result:
Spoiler
I make it 175 over V's 55 and he stops talking then 3-bets to 400. I pause for 5ish seconds and then shove for like 280$ more, and he folds showing pocket 55 saying he was trying to bluff me OTR with the 55$ bet.
You definitely got the maximum. He is not going to believe you have a J.
Spoiler
Was there any bonus fir quads or high hand?
Grunch:
PRE - standard.
FLOP - c-bet small, just as you would with AcKs or any other hand you raised pre that doesn't connect with the board. Go $15 or $20.
TURN - min-click it. Look at him and say something like, "let's make this interesting" as you push the chips in.
This opponent won't know what to do but doubtful he'll fold, and he might think you're FOS and come back over the top. We have the stone nuts and need to build the pot.
RIVER - raise at least 4x, or no less than $200.
Opponents like this will often level themselves into making loose calls because they suck at hand reading and they don't want to get pushed around.
Doubtful he'd say he missed if he was bluffing. Also doubtful he'd come out and bluff again, while saying something stupid.
He probably has a ten and thinks he's value betting.
Result:
Spoiler
I make it 175 over V's 55 and he stops talking then 3-bets to 400. I pause for 5ish seconds and then shove for like 280$ more, and he folds showing pocket 55 saying he was trying to bluff me OTR with the 55$ bet.
Hopefully you traded mobile numbers with him and made him promise to text you whenever he's going to play.
In this case you crushed the deck on the flop... But there are still some hands that will call a c-bet like KQ+, Tx, 98, maybe some under pairs. Against a more passive opponent I would go ahead and c-bet small
However I like the line you chose to rope a dope... wouldn't have expected a bonus river 3b bluff since "check flop, raise later" is a classic monster slowplay line. In most cases you are playing for a crying call by a weaker hand that just needs to see it.
I would bet the flop against players like this. As other posts have explained the BBJ isn't a concern, as he won't fold any hand that could lose this jackpot to you. While it's generally sound advice to slowplay at least one street with monsters like this, here there are two strong arguments for betting: 1) flopping quads usually makes it hard for the opponent to have a hand, but this board is extremely wet (vs say JJ2r, where you should definitely check); 2) he is said to be extremely loose and passive.
I would also raise turn. Though it worked out for you in the end, I think the line you took was too convoluted. The guy is a fish who loves to pay off with anything...just go for 3 streets of chunky value, and hope for the best.
