Banana underreps at the big game
5/10 NLHE 8 handed
Our 1/3 was awful and this game now has a few LPs and some for-profit TAGs so we're over here, we're stuck 400$ at 1/3 and bought in here for 1k. This is our 2nd or 3rd hand. We have a ton of history with both Vs and don't really know how they see us, but both see us as somewhat bluffy I imagine.
V1 a for profit TAG that probably wins 5BB/hr is my guess. He's basically a straightforward TAG with 2 tendencies: 1. he clicks buttons too much and gets out of line with S1Gs and S2Gs and 2. he can be very weak tight pre (but not so much post). He can lay down AK pre like its nothing.
V2 is an older man, TAG, profitable at 1/3, has millions and likes to play the bigger game sometimes. He's very good at reading his opponents so if you can tell him a good story with what hand you have he'll believe you. Can run huge airballs but not multi-street (3-bet bluffs sometimes postflop).
Both Vs have the LP tendency of calling too much pre, even with RIO hands, not 3-betting enough, and calling too much post.
Some hands that come to mind involving V2:
1. I flopped a flush after opening pre with A♦ T♦ and V donked 2x pot on 9d-4d-2d, I shoved flop for like 8x to look bluffy and he snap folded.
2. I called IP with 7♥ 5♥ in SRP, V cbets on K-J-7 one ♥, I raise, he 3-bets, I fold, he shows K9s, rabbit hunt turn is a 9.
--We are effective stack at 1k, V2 covers, V1 has about 1.5k
V2 straddles BTN to 20, H sees A♣ Q♥ in SB and limps 20 off 1k, V1 makes it 75 in HJ off 1.5k, V2 calls BTN, H calls SB. 3-ways OOP.
Flop 225 - A♦ 5♥ 5♠
Check, check, check
Turn 225 - 4♥
H checks, V1 checks HJ, V2 bets 95, H calls, V1 calls
River 510 (830 back) - Q♠
H donks 250, V1 tanks hating life, gives a speech and then folds, V2 gets angry at V1 for giving a speech saying its MW and now "it's obvious you folded an A" and then raises me all-in, H...?
I fold here. It's a gross fold but your hand is the same as even any pair really. He's not ever shoving with anything close to worse unless it's a bluff. It's highly unlikely this is a bluff too. It's multiway, he can have a 5 here on the button and definitely have checked it on the flop on a rainbow board.
I don't like preflop though I think it's just an easy 3bet when V1 makes it 75 over a limp.
Turn should just be a lead too.
Not sure why you didn't raise pre or limp/raise? This guy is the straddle, so he can easily have a 5. Can't imagine he's bluffing here. Just sigh fold.
Yeh raising pre is important here esp since you'll have the worst position postflop, and now you're 50 bb effective with the straddle. As played flop looks good, turn is a must bet - as played on the river I don't mind the lead since it gets checked back alot. I agree with the posts above - just a gross fold OTR.
Yeah, raise or limp/3! preflop.
The speech is more reason to fold the river. That is a tell of a monster. Maybe he could be leveling you with it and bluffing, but I wouldn't want to find out.
I understand the initial limp, but not sure how good it is without a lot of reads.
3bet or fold pre. after the EP raise.
Flop seems std.
I don't love any options on the turn, so x/c is whatever.
Donking river seems spew. I can kind of understand donking QQ, or maybe even KQ/QJ that has blockers but is probably never winning after the turn overcall ... but wtf is AQ donking for? You think there's a lot of AK somewhere and won't bet but will call?
Donking is used correctly when the new card drastically changes how ranges from previous streets combine with the new board ... I don't see how this card changes anything, don't even see how it changes your relative hand value meaningfully.
Not the best at live tells/speech but everything about this screams "I have the nuts and I hate that V1 made it obvious".
If you can read that V2 is monkey tilted and might be shoving all missed draws or any Ax because only AK/AQ is in front ... while doing a good acting job, then call I guess.
I mean, if he’s capable of running huge airball bluffs, then I think you just call when you manage to have top two and decent blockers in a spot where neither of you really rep anything.
But HHs don’t necessarily substantiate that read, so I’m just trusting that sentence in isolation.
Tells are kinda sick though. Just the speech factor in general, obviously, but also I feel like stating your most likely holding is something someone does when they’re leveling a call here. He doesn’t need to level to get a bare A to fold, so I think he’d just let the line speak for itself. The fact that he’s commenting on the multiway-ness / is (acting) invested in whether the other player called or folded just also feels kinda value-y, but I’m purely vibing with this one, it’s not an actual observed tell or anything.
I think the TL;DR is that he’s more likely to put you on a hand that’s inclined to fold than a hand that’ll call, so the fact that he feels the need to muddy the waters seems to suggest he’s trying to short circuit you into making a bad call.
Or he’s just a millionaire playing with his 1/3NL shot taking prey, and you should just close your ears and disregard everything but the first paragraph of this post.
Not that many people can make a speech when they are bluffing. It is usually, like "I might as well go home" when going allin preflop with AA or a set on the flop.
Nice trap pre, nice limp jam…wait what?
Pre is bad, seems like a scared money play if this was 1/3/6 300 eff i know you would’ve limp/jammed or open yourself.
River lead is god awful, fold now and save your stack.
A good example of ‘if you’re willing to call a 3Bet’ then you should have 3Bet yourself. Then you should bet the flop as it’s not likely to get stabbed. That said, I don’t know if you end up with an easier decision on the end, but at least villain knows you have something.
You say he can read the story, but you give him no story to read. I have not seen many passive lines in your posts, so this makes me think you’re playing scared money in the big game. Not critical, because I might do the same as losing 1k hits me differently than $400.
These smart guys calling for a fold are likely correct, so we let it go. But if there were no pair on board and villain had a set, I would be in trouble here. It should be a similar read, but I probably get trapped. Hidden sets are my downfall, does anyone have tips on how to see them coming?
So tell me you called and his KK was no good.
Pre is bad, seems like a scared money play if this was 1/3/6 300 eff i know you would’ve limp/jammed or open yourself.
River lead is god awful, fold now and save your stack.
Limp/shove is better in a 5/10 game than a 1/3 game. In a 5/10 game, there is more raising light, and less chance someone will call rather than 3! with a strong hand.
only quads takes this line, but he's gonna have to show me
Grunch:
PRE - with the BTN straddle, I don't mind the limp, but I'd be doing it to 3B this hand over V1's open and V2's call. I don't like the flat over-call from the SB. I think it condenses our range too much, such that our hand isn't as under-repped as we might think.
FLOP - in this weird configuration, I think we might want to lead out with our big aces on this flop texture, because it's going to get checked through a lot, but we can get called by worse. Checking is fine, but I don't think our hand is quite strong enough to check raise, and a check call basically announces we have a decent ace. We'll be guessing if it goes bet-call and action gets back to us.
TURN - V2's 1/3-ish pot bet smells fishy. I'd expect his value hands to bet flop. I probably just call and play our hand as a bluff catcher. It's unlikely V has a better ace, unless it's A5/A4.
RIVER - I don't like the c/c-c/c-donk line. We're basically letting all of V's worse hands off the hook, and at this stack depth, when we're shot taking, we somewhat invite V to raise as a bluff.
I don't see how we fold at this point. If V has trips or a boat, he's just getting my money.
If it matters, my reasoning for calling river is the reads that V2 is rich, making the money valueless to him, and that he's capable of making big single-street bluffs.
The speech could be interpreted as nutty, but we could also read it as V2 telling V1 that it looks less credible that he has an ace when he jams. I'm struggling to imagine an old man sitting there, planning to raise for value or as a bluff, figuring out in real time that if V1 folded an ace it makes it less likely he has one and therefore more likely he has a 5 and also harder for hero to call with his own ace, if he even has an ace and not a five, etc, etc, etc.
He's probably just pissed that V1 said anything. Maybe in his mind it makes it more likely hero will fold or call, whichever he doesn't want hero doing, and he's just tilt shoving because at the end of the day he's still loaded and DGAF.
Pre is whatever and has been covered well.
V2 can only lead turn with 5x or Ax or exactly 7h6h. I would rather xr/fold turn than call turn and donk the river. V2 would call his Ax and re-raise or jam his 5x.
Since we learned nothing on the turn, the donk on river is a big mistake. We might get a good price to call a value bet on the river if we x/c. We will never know.
AP river: he may be trying to jam us off a chop with a worse Ace. I don't think I can fold getting 3-1.
To be clear, the turn is:
Pot: 225
Turn: A♦5♥5♠ 4♥
...and the flop checked through. So I'd say there are a bunch more possibilities. At least:
43
42
33
22
*♥2♥
*♥3♥
8♥6♥
8♥7♥
76
63
...also wouldn't be shocked to see like J♥T♥. But just because there's a decent number of semi bluffs someone _could_ have leading the turn doesn't mean they have a decent number of bluffs on this river after the turn action.
Regarding the speech, in HU pots it's usually nutted but multiway it's just angling. I interpret his language as weakness instead of strength in this context.
Result:
Spoiler
I ponder a long time and think about V2's check-back OTF and figure he is never creative enough to turn something into a bluff here - maybe 67hh, so I fold. He shows 8♣ 5♣
I don’t understand how to interpret HH reads in this sub.
I guess I’m glad I hedged by saying “in case you’re not lying about this read”
You and me both, especially when he writes "observations" like the following:
He can be very weak tight pre
Both Vs have the LP tendency of calling too much pre
Result:
Spoiler
I ponder a long time and think about V2's check-back OTF and figure he is never creative enough to turn something into a bluff here - maybe 67hh, so I fold. He shows 8♣: 5♣:
He's an idiot who happened to get very lucky.
Next time raise pre, or if not, play your hand like a bluff catcher. He could have a boatload of bluffs here. Your line is pretty face up.
