Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

villain dependent, preflop aggression dependent and position dependent

there's a million different ways i'd play this out based on a number of factors

ie in a vacuum i would bet large on the flop with that player read - but how do they respond to 2 or 3 streets with weak holdings? how do they respond when you check the flop?

a ton of players will call begrudgingly with Ax there and then fold to more aggression later - many others will see you checking the flop meaning you can't possibly have an ace and will then try to play for stacks

Interesting spot I witnessed. I wasn't actually hero. Hero had struck me as a pretty good player. over a couple hours, though I think he butchered this hand. V is one of the best players at these stakes and plays bigger too. Somewhat LAGgy, but not extremely. Thinks and does not play by rote.

2/5 that plays bigger. Typical stack is at least $1500. $3,000 effective.

V raises to 25 in MP. Call, call. Hero in BB finds QQ and makes it $150. V thinks briefly and makes it $700.

If you call here, what is the plan? Do you call?

In live low stakes cash, it's close.

Hero's 6x raise size seems standard from OOP, but if V thinks someone behind him will over-call, he's incentivized to 4B. In hero's spot, I probably make it at least $175, and maybe even $200, just to make it less appealing for anyone to over-call.

At these stack depths, in a game that plays bigger, I could see V being wider than just QQ+/AKs. Maybe he's as wide as TT+/AQs, but certainly JJ+ seems reasonable / possible. If we think V could be expanding his 4B range just due to the configuration, it becomes more of a call, if not a 5B jam.

On the other hand, 4B's at low stakes tend to be pretty strong, especially when the 3B comes from the BB, which should also be strong. V's 4B size is huge. In theory we don't need to defend all that wide. But in real life, I wonder if that sizing is a tell, possibly suggesting V would like hero to fold.

Like, if V had AA, he could just click it up to fold out the players behind, and price hero in to call. This 4B size feels a little suspect.

I don't really like any of hero's options. If we're planning to over-fold to continued aggression, and we think V is wider than QQ+, I could see 5B jamming. Folding seems too nitty, unless we have a read that V is always nutted here. Calling and bluff-catching seems viable if we know V is capable. My gut feeling is that we would prefer it if V has a tendency to slow down and check back later streets rather than barreling off.

feels like a leveling war - my response would definitely be based upon a bunch of factors like if i'd been 3! him a lot or not and whether he regularly 4! me in response

if this is a one time deal i'm folding - if there's a history of this i'm going to call and then check call nearly all flops

Seems fine if you are actually dead certain BB has not looked at his cards. I'm not sure I ever have enough faith in my observation there.

I'd probably try to steal the limps with a decent hand and position, but that's your style. It's kind of bad to have the action come back as it did, assuming BB had actually looked.

how much did you lose?

$200 and (hopefully) my rock image?

GtreadingthatfinelinebetweenrockandmaniacG

Was very certain he hadn't looked as I was paying careful attention to him as he came to the table.

My guess is that raising almost anything other than premiums at this stack size against multiple limpers / setting up poor SPRs with this hand is a fairly bad strategy, but I'm also guessing I'll be outvoted on that.

GcluelessbadstrategynoobG

I don't have any theory to back me up here and am usually deeper, but assuming you credit the limpers as typical fish with a wide and capped range raising to $20 feels likely to either take it down for free or get you HU IP with a fish. Your decision to come back and 3b the limp-caller seems like it will play similarly.

That being said, I think it really depends on what kind of fish are at the table and I'm also colored by the fact that BB raised (lowering the odds of playing the pot limped). Most of the time HU IP with a fish it's pretty easy to have very high EV any time they don't make a Broadway pair or better on the flop, but stickier fish can be harder to read. And if your fish are the type that a $20 open is just getting you to the flop four ways, then I also like it less at this depth with a hand like T9s.

I also don't love sc in multiway limped pots because they flop a lot of draws and the absolute bet sizing of fish means that the flop often gets potted by whoever spikes a pair and then the IO don't favor you because they'll start folding to bigger absolute bets on later streets. HU you often get the option to face only one more bet to see all the way to the river.

But at the end of the day it's just hard to resist the allure of dead money with a playable hand and the button.

Actually really disagree with this. Raising over a field of limpers will very rarely take down the pot / limit it to HU in a typical loose LLSNL game, but 3betting will almost always accomplish that (or at the very least far more so than raising).

Gno?G

Really, really depends on the fish.

I am probably sample biased but my last 1/2 session was at a notably tight-passive table where a $14-18 open IP over 2+ limps scooped the pot at least half the time (and HU most of the rest)*. I didn't quite have the courage to start doing it with ATC on the button, but it was getting pretty tempting.

As noted, I agree with you that if raising the button to a sensible size is not likely to get you HU or better, then you're right that overlimping T9s is better.

*edited slightly to try to remove mental biases here and be more realistic

V did wind up having AA and stacking Hero for 600bbs. Hero played badly so I won't go into it.

However, I really liked Vs play because if QQ calls, flop is small cards... it gets pretty tricky for him OOP. e.g. 1500 pot. Check. Bet 700. Can you fold? If you call, you now have 1600 behind and almost 3k in the pot with 2 streets to go.

V made a good play.

Hard for BB not to lose a lot of money in that spot. Don't see too many people folding QQ to the 4B. Once they call, it's a guessing game / game of chicken post flop.

It sounds crazy to say we're set mining with QQ, but we could look at it that way, maybe, and make a nitty fold on the flop.

Are you really not repping much? I wouldn't be shocked if your range is actually bad here, but also wouldn't be surprised if your range in similar looking spots is balanced.

The only thing I'd question is the raise size: If you are magically here with AA, deciding what to do with ~$40 in the pot and ~200 behind ... do you make it 60?

Yeah, admittedly not repping much when I overlimp the Button. But... is there really much they can do about it? I've put in 1/3rd of my stack, should be kinda clear I'm going with it; is someone going to take a stand with a weak (or even blind) hand? And, given the right players behind, I have overlimped the Button in the past with monsters hoping for the best (not that any of these guys would know that).

And FWIW, yes, ~$60 (setting up a PSB shove) would be my typical raise size with my actual good hands (say a typical tight/nitty TT+/AK/AQs/KQs), although with slightly more dead money I might lean to a shove with the weaker end of that range.

GcluelessNLnoobG

hey guys when you are in a game where VPIP is like 40% peope open limping and 3-5 players are calling 6-10x raises

is my raise range a bit too wide still?

TT+, KJs+ AJo+

obv I overlimp a bit more in this game but not sure if my "raise range is solid enough.

With my premiums I can 15-20x and still get it Multi-way sometimes so thats why im not sure if the above a bit too wide but then I look at it, what is my goal? with my range above? if its to "isolate" with a hand like AJo or KJs shouldnti be raising it up like I do QQ+ ?

Open q9 from mp for 10 and hj, btn & sb calls

Hj is tatted Mawg with scarf and beanie - plays very passively in 3 orbit sample but iirc I played with him before and that’s how he is

Seems to not be button clicking but still not what I’d call a good player

Each time he’s won a pot he’s flashed top pair

Later on saw him flat QQ from the sb vs co rfi and flat aq from utg+1 vs my utg open and he then folded to my 4! After a whale 3!

Btn and sb are elderly fish from Asia and Israel

Flop is 953 rainbow I have no backdoor

I cbet 25 only co calls

4 turn, full rainbow

I cbet 40 and he raises to 95 I call but maybe gave off a tell thinking about it for about 20 seconds

River is a king, I check and he bets 125

I can’t find any natural bluffs and fold

fold turn

strongly consider not opening pre

(I assume HJ morphed into CO during the hand?)

Yes began writing co then realized it was hj and thought I edited it all

Q9 is favorite hand, a big leak of mine, but wouldn’t have played if table weren’t super soft

86 and 76 are both DGSSD's that get there. Fish will also play a lot of trashy AX combos like A2o. He could also just have a lot of 2P combos on the turn, or turned a set with 44.

Pre is probably too loose. Flop is okay. Turn seems like either a disciplined fold or a slightly optimistic call. River seems like a trivial fold.

Offer him $5 if he can show you a hand worse than a pair of 9's. It's worth it to see if he's capable of finding a bluff in this line.

Well, I guess I know where a couple of the villain's are from, but I don't know anyones stack sizes. (c'mon RR)

Preflop seems incredibly loose, no?

Flop seems slightly big to me but whatever.

I might even just check/fold the turn against this straightforward face up guy (he's never betting worse when we check, we're never being exploited, right?). Bet/calling is lighting money on fire, imo.

I don't get to the river but most straightforward players just take their showdown value with a pair + draw (the best we can be hoping for on the turn). So if he's got like, what, exactly 87 (?), nice hand sir.

GhassomeonehackedRR'saccount?G

we were about 800 deep

maniac is a mawg who is 2 seats to my left has been playing every hand and regularly shoving and getting it all in

he is often shown with bottom or mid pair

earlier when i squeezed he 4! all in an amount with absolutely no fold equity with 52s

he's rebought 3 or 4 times for $200 each time

seems like an intelligent guy, possibly on the spectrum, just has that gamble in him

he's recently upped his stack to about 600 after winning two all ins in a row as big dog - one was aipf with his 83o which beat AKs and the other was overshoving the turn with mid pair and beating a straight flush draw + bottom pair which didn't improve

he button straddles for $7, sb who is a good reg but deeply flawed (hey who isn't at 1-3) puts in the call, I look down at QJo and put in the call

two others who are big fish and not tricky call behind, btn takes his option to raise (this is what he does most of time anyway) and makes it 27 total, everyone calls

flop is Q87ss i have the J of spades

it checks around and he makes it 100, i'm the only caller

turn is a Js and it checks to him and he makes it 250 with 260 behind - it's important to note that this is in washington state where max bet is $300 so shoving the turn is not allowed

what do we do?

You are BB? Would guess your hand is a fold pre. from the reads, maybe from any position but certainly the OOP ones. Unless you want gamble it up.

You have the Js and it's also the turn? Can happily shove then, and get money back if called 😉.

Assuming you have Qs and thus. it doesn't get chopped 100% if called, I'd probably still shove top two and Qs draw given reads.