“The Mushroom Game”

Appreciate the detailed reply

I’ve been defaulting to min buy too unless the mushroom is small and a couple of the deeper whales are clearly tilting — then I’ll cover, since the EV of stacking them + locking the two-hand chain is huge. But yeah, outside of that it feels like the stack depth matters way less than it would in a normal game. Too many multiway pots to leverage stack depth to generate folds.

Totally agree that the hardest part is trying to estimate what winning the SB hand is actually worth in EV as the mushroom grows. Your point about treating it like a ~20–25% jackpot might be a decent starting point, but it obviously varies based on table dynamics because some of the whales will go into hard defense mode once the chance button is out. Games usually 9 handed so even with position and skill edge I think its difficult to imagine we will win the next hand 20% of the time.

We’ve been talking about it in our coaching group but none of us have a ton of experience with standup/squid/bounty-style incentives, so we’re kinda just winging it and collecting observations as we go. The format is super fun but theory feels like it breaks down fast with basically every hand going super multiway,

I’ll post some hands here in this thread, any advice is appreciated.

Please post some Mushroom Games HHs.

When I used to play a lot at Gardens casino in the LA area, there used to be something known as "Golden Bounty". Instead of winning 2 hands in a row to collect $25 regular bounty from each other player, you could activate the "golden bounty opportunity" by winning from the SB first to set up the part 2. Winning another hand from that point on activated $50 "golden bounties" to be paid from each player.

I would say that I am somewhat familiar with this kind of side game, so I could shine some light on strategy.

FWIW, there are some really top notch pros who play a lot of bounty/standup/squid game for 3+ years. I think that submersible is right to point you in the direction of coaching from someone with a lot of experience in those side games. You would be surprised at the strategic shifts that occur in side game variants of NLHE that create a much different dynamic for profitable strategic play than normal NLHE.

I heard about a similar game running in private US games years ago ... they called it the BTN game, and whenever you played the BTN you put an ante on the BTN and if you won the hand (on the BTN) then you took all money on the BTN. Only the player on the BTN could win the BTN money.

Preflop shoving wide on the BTN was "common", and I think my default strat. for this game would be somewhat similar ... buyin short and when the BTN gets big try to hit/win in SB with a very wide range ... and then pile money in the BTN, with a lot of hands. Sounds like that is similar to the strategy you are seeing though.

As sub. implied you'd probably be better posting in https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/21/ot... if only because the players there will have a lot more experience with playing different variants.

Hasn't dangermango been posting quite a few HHs lately of a wild, deep home game with a significant squid penalty? I dunno if it's the depth, the clientele, or the squids, but it plays dramatically differently than even >500bb NLHE.

As a first guess towards the problem, it's an old chestnut that the SB is the worst-EV position at the table, and the BU the best. Have those two propositions been formally quantified anywhere, at even a rough estimate? Or just brute force it, as sub mentioned.

I’ve played about 400 hours of regular bounty at gardens, and the occasional golden bounty when that used to run. I’d say the mushroom is gardens bounty on steriods esp when the jackpot builds up. Bluffing incentive for even the tightest players just goes way way up as the jackpot increases. Anyway yeah I’ll post a few of my hands from mushroom, any input is appreciated haha I’ve definitely been flying somewhat blind up to this point.

500 on the mushroom
No chance

Co open 45 we flat btn KQdd sb and strd call

Flop KhJh9s
Check check co bet 100 i call sb call

Turn 7s bdfd
Check check i bet 170 sb call pretty fast co fold

River 8s bringing bd flush
Sb donk 350 i?

Mushroom: ~$600
9-handed
Very deep here like 5k eff with most of the table

UTG I limp KJo
HJ whale limps
BTN (solid Korean pro) isolates to $68
I call, HJ calls

Flop: K T 5♣♣
Check, check
BTN bets $85
I call, HJ folds

Turn: T
Check, check

River: 4
I block $120
BTN snap-raises to $513

I?

Mushroom: ~$376
6-handed (others distracted eating)

HJ we open KJo to $68
SB (same solid Korean pro) calls
SB has ~$2,051 behind

Flop: K 9 8♦♥ (two-tone)
SB checks
We bet $51
SB calls

Turn: J
SB checks
We bet $154
SB calls

River: 4
SB checks
I?

Mushroom: ~$1,094
We have the chance button

4 limpers, we overlimp KJo on the button
SB, BB, and straddle all complete

8 ways to the flop

Flop: K J 5hhd (~$60)
Checks to us
We bet $256
Folds around to CO (very tight, ABC Korean pro — basically nitty)
He tanks, almost jams, almost folds, then tank-calls

We are very deep with this player — about $3,590 left behind.

Turn: 4d (backdoor flush draw available)
CO checks
I?

2e? Jam? 3/4p?

Double flush draw with the mushroom chance we could shove so many hands so might as well do it for value.

Maybe make it around 1K pre.

Yeah I think its pretty close between jam and around 2x pot with top 2 on dbl fd. Feels pretty likely this guy has some sort of a big combo draw so jamming out equity could be slightly higher EV with the mushroom incentive?

Preflop I’m not gonna get a lot of credit here with a mushroom this large I think I get called/jammed on with a ton of random Ax and middling PP…. These guys are a bunch of dirty lrr trappers, they all still have top of range.

i think posting individual hands is completely worthless lol

atleast pre spots people can try to do the math

well at an 8 or 9 handed table you're what 11-12% to win any hand 1/n. is not much of a stretch to me to think being otb and being the only person besides maybe the sb being directly incenvitized for u to win the pot ~50% more often than you're suppposed to at equilibrium vanilla nl

I used gpt to create a formula for calculating these odds and in a 9 handed game these were some of the numbers I came up with based on different bb/100 skill edge.

So in a 9-handed mushroom limp-fest, with a strong seat on the button and those skill edges, your chance of winning the current hand when you’re on the mushroom chance button is roughly:
• 10 bb/100: ~15%
• 20 bb/100: ~15.5–16%
• 30 bb/100: ~16–16.5%

It’s increasing less than 1% for every 10bb/100 of winrate. Given how short stacks are and how hard these guys play defense preflop I struggle to imagine we are printing more than 30bb/100 in EV in this exact setup.

I would guess this is bad.

I would assume you aren't doing this in a normal game and I don't think the changes make this hand better in early position, esp. this deep.

Feels bad to block bet this hand ... even if he calls AK/KQ and would bet bigger if you check.

Is the 45 open (over 6x straddle blind) normal? Is it common to call here (as you) and have the SB be wide?

I don't like the size on the turn ... SB is heavily incentivized to call/win (chance to win an extra 500 next hand), and we very likely have the best hand now. Also just much rather bet big and fold than bet small and have to think about folding.

If SB wins with a chop, does that mean he still can win the mushroom next hand?

Would worry a lot more about random Tx hands than flushes, but I assume SB is calling turn with any Q/T/hh/ss ... so only half of those got there. Also might be some weird block bet with worse two pair.

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the side games, but in this hand just being this deep it seems to me that it is a prime candidate to over bet the turn. V has a lot of FDs that might convert to pair+FD or combo draws. The addition of the side game dynamic should just make him even more willing to call a huge bet with with any FD. K9/K8/KT will all call huge bets even without the side game dynamics.

With the side game, you can probably get even more egregious. I'd 2x pot on turn and with the side game I wouldn't be surprised if it's "right" to go 2.5-3x to set up a very small spr for river jam.

As it is, I'd jam river and hope V interprets it as a missed flush and has Kx. That probably isn't right in theory, but I think even good players will look us up more than they should.

I think the almost never has a set here, because with his incentive to win the hand he would fast play them even more frequently than usual. And this is a run out where fast playing makes a lot of sense anyway. Maybe once in a blue moon you run into QT with FD that played slow. So this feels like a clear place to take advantage of the fact that V has better implied odds than the odds that you directly offer him with your bet. Essentially, we get to bet larger and thinner for value because V has an additional incentive to call.

In a hand like this where we have thick value that is almost always good, we can get very greedy.

im not sure the winrate matters as much as button is playing something like 30x the stakes anyone else is

i not really convinced ai is going to be able to accurately model this

just like basic guesstimation has button playing 100/200 (w 4bb if he minbuys) from the dead money when a new mushroom starts while everyone else is playing 4/8 lol

I understand the thought, but I think 30x is a bit too much.

The place I'd start is like ... everyone has $1k effective, mushroom is $500 ... if BTN is live to win the mushroom then they only need ~40% HU if called. So shoving top 20% of range pre. seems like it'd be fine, and everyone else is defending around top 5%.

So roughly 4x preflop. Instead of shove or fold, playing postflop with the BTN maybe makes it better ... so maybe 5x-8x. But I'd guess the closer you get to the river the less imbalance there is.

Of course having a shorter stack helps a lot. So if you have the BTN and only 500, with the mushroom at 500+ ... it might even be fine to shove blind. And defense ranges would maybe go up to like top 10%.

Being 2k+ (again, guessing) starts to become weird where you lose some value of the mushroom by being so deep. Maybe you can re-collect that value by tightening up a bit and still being "kind of insane" (Eg. shoving AKo for 3k preflop with a 500 mushroom seems like it's printing).

Also feels like one of those games where you never see the long run, in a human lifetime.

there is 15$ of dead money for non mushroom vs 320 minimum for the button. i think thats comparable to 100/200 where there is 300$ of dead money pre flop. do u see?

Sure here are some preflop spots. Maybe straightforward enough but still good examples.

Hand 1

Blinds 2/3/7
• $444 mushroom, we have the chance button.
• Everybody limps, we look down at AKo and shove for $838.
• Very straightforward.

⸻

Hand 2
• Blinds: $2 / $3
• $1,197 mushroom (no chance yet this hand)

I’m in the SB, so if I win this hand I get the chance button next hand.
• There are 4 limpers, we look down at AKo in the SB with a $2,564 stack.
• I make it $513.
• The BB takes a long pause then shoves all-in, slightly covering me.

This player is quite loose-passive in general.

I think his range is mostly KK exactly
Unlikely to be AA
Not sure how he plays AK in this spot; he’s pretty loose-passive so he might just flat.
Maybe QQ?

I call off here, factoring in some added EV from getting a big chance next hand if I win.

When theres no chance button im limping my entire continue range from first position. I have lots of options based on the action behind me (LRR LC LF). With the special whale involved im not folding any hands that have potential this deep even if theres some RIO I can navigate accordingly.

Block seems better than xcall for the exact reason you listed and because I think this will increase bluffing freq from my opponent. If i check he may take showdown with hands as weak as ace high. What would be a better line?

Agree about OB turn even when straights complete this is probably a better line than 2/3p

I went ~600 and got the super tank call. When I size this way on the turn I don’t want to go too too large on the river. I asked myself what size would I go to fold Kx and I think that would be about 800-1k. Maybe a little room to go bigger on the river that being said.