QQ in 25BB stack facing limpers.
Hi guys,
I've played a 2-days live event recently in the local club. It was the end of Day1 (one more level to go) and a following hand:
UTG (just moved to our table, never played with him) limped in having about 35BB stack (second stack on our table) and I had QQ on UTG+1 with 25BB in stack. There were couple of shorter stacks on the 8 handed table but nobody below 10 bigs.
So, I was thinking to shove right away but 25BB seem to be a bit much, so I decided to raise big instead and made it 5BB. Everyone folds to the UTG who calls.
Flop: K42 rainbow. UTG checks, I bet 3.5BB into 12.5BB pot, UTG calls.
Turn: another 4, we play check-check.
River: 8 and UTG leads small, just 2.5 BB into ~20BB pot. I pay just to see his hand and he reveals KTo! Some weird play can be seen offline, indeed.
So, first general question - how to handle limpers when we have 20-25BB stack and a strong starting hand? Does it make sense to shove right away?
Regarding the hand above, any better way to play it postflop?
10 Replies
QQ doesn't shove even if he was BTN and your were OOP from SB or BB. IP iso should usually be about the "standard raise+1bb plus limper". Could go a bit bigger, but EP vs EP it should be pretty small. You can go larger on CO or BTN, because you have less players behind you, therefore it makes sense to polarize your strategy more targetting the limper. From BB it would be absolutely ok to iso to 5-6bb. Deeper stacked it's totally ok to iso BB to like 7-8bb, especially vs weak players who rarely go for limp/reraise. But IP it stays relatively small.
You could also have checked the flop to keep the pot small and possibly induce the limper to bluff on later streets.
I typically shove only when my bet sizing would be more than 30% effective stack. Which is not the case here. So I like the 5bb bet sizing (though I would have made it 4 bb here with under 50 bb's)
However, in the BB or even SB OOP I have shoved with stacks even bigger than 25 bb's. Usually I will do it with an A so I will be blocking limpers that could have AA. And typically there are more than 3 limpers. And yes one time I had an A and the first limper had AA...
I like your flop bet sizing and turn check back. And there is nothing you can do on the river except call. A cooler.
Just as an example of what not to do and why, I was playing in a smallish Foxwoods tournament and it folded to the SB who jammed for like 100 bb's (it could have been 80 or 120 I just don't remember that part of this story). I said to myself I think I need AA to call (though I doubt I would have folded KK or QQ) and my first card was an A and my second card was an A so I called and he had AT. I get that he didn't want to play against me OOP. But its not worth the risk of jamming with such a big stack.
In your hand if he had c/r jammed I'm not sure you can fold anyway because he could have hands like AK/JJ though more likely would have AA. But in position getting to play against him with QQ you have a likelihood of winning more than his limp if no A or K shows up on the flop and in this case you likely would have gotten paid off if a T had hit. Or if he flopped a straight or gutter draw.
I prefer to check flop (we don't need much protection, and hate facing a raise) but I think you played it fine, on a board this dry you're going to have to pay a bit regardless unless this guy is a complete nit.
Thanks everyone for your comments!
I agree, that 5BB was indeed too much. But since he limped-called anyway, probably a good sizing for this specific opponent :-)
As for checking back the flop, I didn't want him to catch an Ace on the turn (I assumed he likely had some weak Ax ... not sure what else could he limp-call 5BB raise with).
To induce the bluffs ... maybe. But can I call 2 streets here if he starts betting on the turn?
One more question. Let's assume he raised preflop. Are there any hands I should actually shove with from UTG+1? Or is 3-bet always better in 25BB effective?
GTO shows AQs,KQs and TT as a shove ... does it work in a real world as well?
What are you going to do - sometimes a worse hand will outflop you. If you want to take the lowest variance/safest route you can shove, but you're costing yourself a lot of money for safety. If you had AA 200 BB deep and someone raised sure you could shove to lower variance but you'd be torching profit of just raising. If you want to raise and keep in worse hands just realize they sometimes will make better hands - part of poker.
One more question. Let's assume he raised preflop. Are there any hands I should actually shove with from UTG+1? Or is 3-bet always better in 25BB effective?
GTO shows AQs,KQs and TT as a shove ... does it work in a real world as well?
If we simplify it to everyone having 25bb, then UTG7 vs UTG8, there is almost no jamming at all. It is just too dangerous to shove too many hands if there are so many players behind you. The later position both you and the opener are, the more jams there will be. But QQ should never 3b jam vs minraise, unless there is a bounty involved. Even from SB or BB it is a non-ai 3bet.
Here some examples to see how we have progressively more and more jams on later positions:





You are looking at their most default 8max postflop ranges. Those are their oldest and their are not very good to be honest. In this spot I think UTG7 vs UTG8 doesnt have flats allowed, so that is skewing everything. Also those ranges when shallow have incredibly low non allin 3bet values, especially in spots like CO BTN, HJ BTN... so even their postflop solution library based on these are not so good. You are better off spending a little extra time to use the preflop only 8max ranges and then run custom sim in the AI solver (if you have the elite sub).
Well played OP. I could nitpick sizing but overall I like the way you played every street. As already discussed preflop a slightly smaller open is standard, but if they will call 5 BB with weak hands then why not when you have QQ?
In these sort of spots I also adjust bet sizing based on stack sizes. There is a sweet spot where you bet like 1/6-1/5 of your stack where opponents can't really reraise without basically committing themselves.
On the flop, after you raised big from EP with a limper, your range should be strong almost like a 3-bet range. A range bet is probably appropriate on that board vs a limp-call range. I might go slightly smaller. If you play any checks QQ would be the type of hand that wants to check a lot though. It doesn't require a lot of protection in comparison to something like 99 and is still behind vs a K.
Turn check is really the only play.
River you can't fold to a tiny block bet. He likely makes the same bet with lots of weak pocket pairs and stuff that you beat.