GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Jaylen Brown's current numbers are almost identical to MJ's career numbers. Brown: 29.1/6.2/4.9 Jordan 30.1/6.2/5.3. They both shoot 49.7% fg. MJ's 3 is 32% and JB is 36%, but I think the forum agrees MJ would be around that 36% mark were he to play today, making Browns eFG advantage go away. Jordan 83%, Brown 78% FT. (and, yes, there are pace arguments, and others that I am not looking at, this is just spitballin here)
On D, look Brown is just as long, and a decent amount heavier and stronger. He is among the top modern wing defenders. Jordan is quicker, more athletic than Brown. Brown is a highly athletic wing, but c'mon it is MJ.
All of this is no slight on MJ. Brown is playing at near MVP level, it is by far his best year.
My point here is I think JB this year gives one a good idea of what it would be like to have MJ on a modern team. Like I think the C's record would be maybe slightly better with MJ on average, than it is now, JB's career year (the first and only year so far where he is the number 1 option). JB is leading the C's to a surprisingly strong start. A team that if the playoffs were somehow to start today, nobody would be surprised to see the C's make some sort of run in the East.
I think career average MJ would surpass that, but not by much. Maybe "Prime MJ" would take this C's squad a round or 2 further. Not near enough to beat OKC, but prime MJ could probably be counted on the get this C's squad to at least to the ECF, if not the Championship series.
No he did not. Celtics should trade Tatum and build around JB. He's shown he can be a great #1 option. Why pay Tatum AND him, especially considering Tatum is probably going to risk further serious injury coming back too soon.
Tatum could never be the same again...
I assume the C's are in a wait and see mode. Maybe the C's start losing and Tatum doesn't come back this year. Then they can try to tank for a good pick, see where that goes. Obviously, I hope for the opposite.
Jaylen Brown's current numbers are almost identical to MJ's career numbers. Brown: 29.1/6.2/4.9 Jordan 30.1/6.2/5.3. They both shoot 49.7% fg. MJ's 3 is 32% and JB is 36%, but I think the forum agrees MJ would be around that 36% mark were he to play today, making Browns eFG advantage go away. Jordan 83%, Brown 78% FT. (and, yes, there are pace arguments, and others that I
Good comparison. I think most people agree that MJ is probably equivalent to Brown if he was playing today in a much better league with the improvement in the talent pool. A regular all-star, pushing for a top 5 MVP finish in his peak seasons.
I think the situation becomes different when you think about adding a career average Lebron to the current C's minus JB. A similar allotment should be made for Lebron as when I assumed MJ would shoot 36% from 3, take more 3's, and understand today's game at a high level. Of course, Lebron has done this for the last few years. It is just the Lebron we are adding is more of the Lebron that jumps out of the building, and moves faster than anyone not Westbrook or Rose. So, that Lebron but he plays the 2025 game.
I don't want to go much further, but I see that C's team easily getting out of the East, and vs OKC, the C's would be dogs but no more so than Cavs vs GSW that famous year. The current C's have some shooters, a good rim protector, and a few young, long defenders. Lebron as described...I think that C's team is a fair sight better than the MJ team.
I don't want to go much further, but I see that C's team easily getting out of the East, and vs OKC, the C's would be dogs but no more so than Cavs vs GSW that famous year. The current C's have some shooters, a good rim protector, and a few young, long defenders. Lebron as described...I think that C's team is a fair sight better than the MJ team.
FG logic - It would obviously be better for Brown to lose in the EC Finals than make it to the finals and lose to a far superior team.
Only 25 players have played 1298 games, streak is unbreakable.
Losing the streak for a game winning assist wide open 3 instead of contested 2.
Lebron scored 8 points in Game 3 of the the 11' Finals and 7 points in Game 5 of the 14' ECF, so there's no steak - the media simply lies.
Jordan has the steak for most consecutive games of 10+ points with 1045 straight games (including playoffs of course).. Lebron is far behind at 865.
except sciatica is never diagnosed by itself - it's a condition that's caused by other things like herniated disc, pinched nerve, spinal compression/stenosis - one or more of these things would've been diagnosed with the sciatica, so it was definitely bogus.. Most sciatica is minor anyway and millions of people work with it every day, or play through it - it's basically nothing unless it's severe, which it almost never is.. Take it from someone who knows about these injuries. Lebron is simply a selfish colluder that faked an injury to procrastinate his impending role player role on the team
He still extended his record single double streak by having 11 assists. I'm assuming nobody beat that with rebounds but it's possible someone like Jabbar might have. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the single double record
How can you say the bolded above and be in your 40's, aka old enough to know that such meaningless records and bar-lowering was never a consideration for decades, until this fake debate started.
You guys don't actually debate his ability or accomplishments because you can't - they're obviously inferior - so you harp on longevity, which is meaningless in determining the better basketball player... You're all just liars because you missed watching the best, and so you're mad about it
Looking at the C's, Jordan Walsh, 40in vert, 7 foot wingspan, that Gonzalez beating guys up with the hands they say measure 2nd only to Tacco Falls' (idk about that but that is what they say was measured at combine), they got other wing defenders...and they are all just role playing kids. Every team has somebody or several in the mold of these players. MJ played against a lot
MJ played against lot of Robert Packs, Blue Edwards, Tony Campbell's and Stacey Augmons.
And today's game is ruled by unathletic Euros like Jokic and Luka... Heck, at least Tripucka wasn't the best player in the league - he would certainly be ranked higher in today's hands-off, spaced-out, beginner format than he was in the advanced format (prior eras)
all imo of course and welcome back...but...
Robert Pack, a 6'2" listed at 180, is Bronny James, also 6'2'', 210, like Bronny, Pack was a strong, short, fun dunker who couldn't shoot. He'd average 20 in the G-league today.
Blue Edwards. 6-4, 200lb...also a fun dunker but I doubt he would give Lebron James much trouble. He might have an NBA job today, his 33% three is pretty good for his era.
Pretty much the same for "Plastic Man" who was rail thin. Not strong enough to guard Lebron. 15% from 3, 72% FT. Fun Dunker, G-leaguer.
Tony Campbell has the size, I remember him with the Lakers as a role player to put it kindly. But I guess he went to MN and averaged over 20ppg in their expansion season. Still at 25% from 3...Historic Accomplishment: In that 1987-88 season, after a mid-season acquisition by the Lakers in March 1988, Campbell became the first player to win both an NBA championship (with the Lakers) and a Continental Basketball Association (CBA) championship (with the Albany Patroons) in the same season.
No time machine but he'd contend for the G-league trifecta title today for sure.
I think there are better examples from Jordan's time of wing defenders, but you listing these guys kinda proves my point that teams today use their roster spots on absolute freak wing defenders who specialize in getting out on the 3 ball, fighting through screens, and switching. This means they have to be more of "2nd biggest hand ever measured" physical weirdos. Jordan Walsh is an explosive, relentless, athlete with a 7-foot-3 wingspan. Tony Campbell was not. Teams today don't have Tony Campbell's or Robert Pack's.
More AI on Campbell to see if I was missing something...
While there isn't a specific, widely published vertical leap number for former NBA player Tony Campbell, his athleticism was noted, though he wasn't known as a supreme leaper; he was a versatile scorer at Ohio State and in the NBA, but data focuses more on his scoring/shooting, not explosive jumping stats like current prospects.
For NBA Player Tony Campbell:
Focus: His game was more about skill, scoring, and mid-range shooting during his Ohio State and NBA career (Lakers, Timberwolves, etc.).
AI didn't mention it, but I am sure he had the same skills during his Albany Patroon days as well.
Not the "now-defunct" Albany Patroons btw...The Albany Patroons are a professional basketball team that plays in The Basketball League. Previously, the team competed in the Continental Basketball Association and in the United States Basketball League. The Patroons won CBA championships in 1984 and 1988 as well as a TBL championship in 2019.
So they are still fully funct.
Also 11 assists 0 turnovers, a little early for the totally washed status. His shot has been off but it's 6 games after an extended injury. There will be a day when he does officially fall all the way off, but I'm not convinced it's now.
Casual fans conflate vision and the ability to get an assist with IQ.
This is wrong
Vision is a small slice of the IQ pie... IQ is understanding and being able to execute the best brand of ball, chemistry and teammate elevation.. For example, the Spurs and Warriors have been recognized as being teams with goat ball movement and brand of ball, so that means that Duncan and Curry have goat IQ - they can dominate within the best brand of team ball that gets the most out of the least.. Curry's off-ball game puts the ball in dray, Klay, Poole and Wiggins hand, so they can develop and the team reaches its ceiling - that's goat IQ compared to Lebron's long list of teammate craterings by imposing spot-up roles, weak ball movement and weak records.
High-assist ball-dominators like Luka and Lebron kill ball movement and great chemistry, thereby needing more help every year, regardless of cast.. They have good vision but low IQ (bad ball movement, chemistry and zero young player development/imposes spot-up roles)
Not the "now-defunct" Albany Patroons btw...The Albany Patroons are a professional basketball team that plays in The Basketball League. Previously, the team competed in the Continental Basketball Association and in the United States Basketball League. The Patroons won CBA championships in 1984 and 1988 as well as a TBL championship in 2019.
So they are still fully funct.
We know that today's game is weak because in addition to not needing athleticism like Jokic/Luka/Reaves, we also see bricklayers drive open paints so they can still dominate like Giannis or Westbrook..
So in addition to needing more athleticism and imposing physicality to be a top player in previous eras, you also had to be a great shooter to shoot over packed paints..
Virtually every good scorer was a GREAT mid-range shooter and physically imposing, while today's good scorers can be bricklayers (Giannis, Westbrick) or unathletic (Luka, Jokic)..
The weaker players of today's era exist because the format is weaker - it's a hands-off, spaced-out, beginner format that produces weaker players than international/old school formats (higher traffic formats) - that's why the Americans underperform their talent in international play by barely beating or losing to 1 man teams.. They've developed beginner, "downhill" skillsets that can't compete internationally without an enormous talent advantage
Dynasty with just Klay/Dray or Poole/Wiggins = goat IQ/overachieving
Weak teams with AD, Luka Wade/Bosh and Kyrie/Love = low IQ/underachieving
It's simple and intuitive... i.e. Mostly getting smashed with stacked teams = low IQ.... Dynasties with normal rosters of 1 franchise player = goat IQ
all imo of course and welcome back...but...Robert Pack, a 6'2" listed at 180, is Bronny James, also 6'2'', 210, like Bronny, Pack was a strong, short, fun dunker who couldn't shoot. He'd average 20 in the G-league today.Blue Edwards. 6-4, 200lb...also a fun dunker but I doubt he would give Lebron James much trouble. He might have an NBA job today, his 33% three is pretty go
Kindergarten, junior high and high school teams spam threes just like the NBA - it's much easier to learn how to spam threes (today's game) than develop a great mid-range game or post game (previous eras).
If the three-point line was removed, the worst team from the 90's would sweep the 17' Warriors or OKC... Specifically, Curry's 25 foot 2-pointers would be worth nothing and not preferred compared to Barkley's dunk, Dantley's 2-point mastery or Jordan and Dominique for example... Shaq, Malone, Aguirre, English - you name it - a two-pointer from these guys would be easily preferred over a two-pointer from Curry or today's 3-point robots that aren't that good at contested mid-range in traffic.. Ultimately, previous eras had the same advantage on 2's that today's era has on threes.
And btw, you think Bronny could hang with Payton or dunk on Kemp in the clutch of a historic playoff game??. Stop trolling.. Tons of college bench players or 2 ppg bums can rip the rim off then and now (ahem
Ultimately, previous eras had just as many great athletes - they match today's players man for man if we were to start listing them.. Guys like Tom Chambers was more athletically talented than Cooper Flagg but was barely All-NBA... Similarly, Bobby Jones is almost certainly superior, and many other white guys.. Today's fans and players simply don't know how many great players and athletes there were back then
Today's era features perimeter defenders more because the game is played on the perimeter - someone like Reggie Lewis or Clyde Drexler might get All-defense in today's format but went unnoticed in previous eras.. Surely they would both get All-defense alongside DPOY MJ
6'7" SG's - Dale Ellis, Reggie Lewis, Reggie Miller, Dan Majerle, Stacey Augmon, Drexler, Malik Sealy, Tony Campbell, and tons more... Rodman, Horry, Mason, X-Man, Finley, Hill, Dominique, McKey and tons of 6'8" to 6'10 SF's were destroyed by MJ
This isn't even scratching the surface
Number of seasons player meets criteria, in the NBA/BAA, qualified for Points Per Game Leaderboard, in the regular season, requiring Total Rebounds/G >= 5 and Assists/G >= 5 and Points/G >= 25, sorted by descending instances.
1 LeBron James 16 2004-05 2023-24 Seasons List
2 Kobe Bryant 8 2000-01 2012-13 Seasons List
3 Oscar Robertson 8 1960-61 1967-68 Seasons List
4 Giannis Antetokounmpo 7 2018-19 2024-25 Seasons List
5 James Harden 7 2014-15 2025-26 Seasons List
6 Michael Jordan 7 1984-85 1992-93 Seasons List
7 Luka Dončić 6 2019-20 2025-26 Seasons List
8 Nikola Jokić 5 2020-21 2025-26 Seasons List
9 Kevin Durant 5 2013-14 2023-24 Seasons List
10 Stephen Curry 4 2015-16 2021-22 Seasons List
11 Russell Westbrook 4 2014-15 2019-20 Seasons List
12 Tracy McGrady 4 2001-02 2004-05 Seasons List
13 Larry Bird 4 1984-8
Today's era features perimeter defenders more because the game is played on the perimeter - someone like Reggie Lewis or Clyde Drexler might get All-defense in today's format but went unnoticed in previous eras.. Surely they would both get All-defense alongside DPOY MJ6'7" SG's - Dale Ellis, Reggie Lewis, Reggie Miller, Dan Majerle, Stacey Augmon, Drexler, Malik Sealy, Tony Cam
Fact check
One DFPOTY in the last 20 years has been a guard. 5 of the 7 where guards 80s (DPOTY only started in 83).
Defensive Teams have always been 2G, 2F, 1C until the last 2 years when they went positionless. But it's actually opposite as it's the guards getting left out (last year only 2 of the 10 players were guards, and 4 the year before, but none in first team). So the above doesn't make sense.
