GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Looking at Craig Ehlo and Hornicek in the above video...jfc these guys couldn't defend for ****. And I remember they were considered tough hardnosed defensive wings. They look like little kids out there. He said Ehlo guarded Jordan 57 times. Like 5% of his games were against this scrawny white guy. 6-6, 180lb. Are you f-in kidding me, that is what is listed. Yeah. 6'6' 180 pale ass white guy guarding Lebron James. How is that going to end?
I googled who guarded Jordan the most. Said Joe Dumars. 6'3'' 190. Joe was tough. He was known as a dude who could drill the 3 and an all-around solid guard. A quiet leader, a real pro's pro. But jfc. if 10% of your games you are lining up against 180 and 190lbs, no length to speak of. Dumars wasn't quick or a leaper. Neither was Ehlo.
And ok, I am going by what is listed on BBR for height and weight. I would think Dumars was over 200lbs, he was pretty built. And 180 for Ehlo sounds light. Still he was slight and no athlete. I guess you could argue Jrue Holiday for Dumars comp. But Jrue is 6'4'' 220.
Look at the photos. Some high percentage of MJ's games, he was lined up against those 2 guys. And they were considered his toughest matchup.
Thinking about others. Cooper...I think he didn't play, retired around then, in that first Lakers-Bulls finals. So faced him twice a year towards the end of his career. Maybe guarded Jordan for 50 mins total. idk. Doesn't seem worth it to include that.
oh Starks...6'5''...180lbs...lol.
Maybe put some size on MJ?! good grief. what a bunch of weak ass midgets by todays standards.
While many tried, Joe Dumars is widely considered the toughest individual defender Michael Jordan faced, often tasked with guarding him for the Detroit Pistons, though Gary Payton, Danny Ainge, Hersey Hawkins, and even smaller guards like Muggsy Bogues and Allen Iverson gave MJ significant trouble and defended him well at different times. The Pistons' "Jordan Rules" (team defense) made it a collective effort, but Dumars was the lynchpin.
AI says I should include Hersey Hawkins. I had a friend in high school from Philly, called him Hershey Highway
(n. Anal sex. Current usage in USA, where 'taking the Hershey Highway' carries the same meaning as 'fudge packing.)
I mean 6'3'' 190. He was a shooter.
jfc. smh.
Gary Payton: The "Glove" hounded Jordan relentlessly in the 1996 Finals, making him work hard, though Jordan still scored well.
Obviously, one of the best defensive point guard of all-time.
Gary Payton (the Hall of Famer, "The Glove") was listed at 6'4" (1.93m) and around 180 lbs during his career...like I said....Point guard.
Ha, lucky for me I am going out of town again. This thread gets me going!
ok, in summary...Jordan was guarded by midgets. and I didn't include Iverson. Mark Price heh. Muggsy oh man.
The best defensive wings in the NBA right now, based on recent rankings and impact, include versatile disruptors like Jalen Williams (OKC), Mikal Bridges (NYK), and Kawhi Leonard (LAC), alongside emerging talents like Ausar Thompson (DET) and Dyson Daniels (ATL), known for elite perimeter defense, length, and impact on winning, with veterans like Jimmy Butler (MIA) still formidable when healthy.
Man every teams got something for MJ. I talked about the C's, who have at 5 or 6 guys that can take turns and match up with Jordan.
I just thought of a random team. Sacramento. Just popped in my head. OK, AI says...
For actual NBA players, the Kings' best perimeter defender often highlighted is Keegan Murray, praised for guarding elite scorers and improving his strength and physicality, with Keon Ellis also noted for disruptive on-ball defense, steals, and length.
ok...Keegan Murray.
Keegan Murray is listed at 6' 8" (2.03 m) tall and weighs 225 lbs (102 kg).
During the 2022 NBA Draft Combine, recorded a max vertical leap of 35 inches.
ok, so not a leaper, but a big long kid.
6'7" SG's - Dale Ellis, Reggie Lewis, Reggie Miller, Dan Majerle, Stacey Augmon, Drexler, Malik Sealy, Tony Campbell, and tons more... Rodman, Horry, Mason, X-Man, Finley, Hill, Dominique, McKey and tons of 6'8" to 6'10 SF's were destroyed by MJ
Dale Ellis was a prolific scorer and legendary three-point shooter, everyone knows he was not known for his defense. Always looked a bit chunky. Not a good start dude.
Reggie Lewis...
Boston Celtics star Reggie Lewis frequently guarded Michael Jordan, and Jordan admitted Lewis's length and tenacity made him a uniquely tough matchup, even blocking four of Jordan's shots in a single game in 1991, a feat Jordan said left him "tentative" and rattled. On March 31, 1991, Lewis had a standout defensive performance against Jordan, doing something no other player is officially credited with: blocking Michael Jordan's shot four times in a single game.
Jordan's Performance: Jordan still scored 37 points, but it took him an inefficient 36 shots to do so, and he was held to just 7 points on 3-for-11 shooting in the first half
Jordan had pretty strong numbers raw numbers vs. Lewis' C's. But idk the %. MJ admits Lewis gave him trouble.
Derick McKey...6'10'' 240. 31 years old when guarding Jordan in the playoffs ...AI " The defensive matchup between McKey and Jordan was a major storyline. In Game 4, Jordan was isolated on the left wing against McKey on the final possession, and Jordan's potential game-winning shot at the buzzer fell short". Jordan shot 46.7% that series. I guess that's ok. Good job mj. I think modern teams can come up with something better than a 241 pound 31 year old nicknamed "Heavy D".
Dominique Wilkins was known as an elite scorer ("The Human Highlight Film"), but his defense was inconsistent, often considered average to below-average
we all know this, odd you included him. But also Reggie Miller, so lol, not so odd. We are talking about defensive wings, and you list pretty bad defenders. Seems like an admission to me.
x-man guarded pippen vast majority of time imo.
Jordan averaged 25.7 ppg the 11 times he played Finley. Shot pretty badly perhaps...
on March 12, 1998, where Finley's Dallas Mavericks defeated Jordan's Chicago Bulls in overtime. In that game, Finley scored a game-high 32 points and was instrumental in holding Jordan to 26 points on 10-of-24 shooting,
Many of the rest of the games were vs Wizards. So, yeah Jordan shot badly vs. Finley.
Finley and Lewis both seem like modern D guys who perhaps gave Jordan some trouble.
More AI: Tyrone Hill did not typically "guard" Michael Jordan in the sense of a primary defensive assignment, but he was on the court against him and was involved in defensive plays on Jordan.
Here are the key points regarding the two players:
Positions: Jordan was a shooting guard (SG) or small forward (SF), while Hill was a power forward (PF) or center (C). Players generally guarded others at their own positions.
6'7", 250-pound Mason is not a counter to the plethora of modern wing defenders vs what Jordan faced. Mason could bully Jordan a bit, but he's not what we are talking about.
So, you are pretty much debunked right?
Rodman...you "destroyed by MJ"
AI: Dennis Rodman famously guarded Michael Jordan, especially during their intense Detroit Pistons vs. Chicago Bulls rivalry in the late 80s and early 90s, where Rodman's tough, physical defense was a key part of the Pistons' strategy to "shut down" Jordan, though Jordan eventually overcame them.
Key Aspects of Rodman's Defense on Jordan:
Physicality: Rodman was relentless, using his body, long arms, and low center of gravity to deny Jordan the ball, contest shots, and get in his face.
Psychological Warfare: He would foul, trash talk, and engage in physical battles, aiming to disrupt Jordan's rhythm and get into his head.
Pistons' "Bad Boys" Era: As a key part of the Pistons' defense, Rodman's job was to make Jordan's life miserable, impacting his scoring and frustrating him.
Shift in Strategy: While initially assigned to other players, Rodman would switch onto Jordan when MJ started scoring, making it a personal duel.
Robert Horry did guard Michael Jordan when Horry was with the Houston Rockets in the mid-90s, facing him in the NBA Finals, though Horry primarily defended forwards like Jordan, not usually Jordan himself for extended periods, but they were on the court together and Horry's Rockets battled Jordan's Bulls.
Key Details:
Teams: Horry played for the Houston Rockets (winning two titles) when Jordan was in his prime with the Chicago Bulls in the early-to-mid 90s.
Matchups: The Rockets and Bulls met in the playoffs, and Horry, a 6'10" forward, would have been tasked with guarding other key Bulls players like Scottie Pippen.
I remember around 10 years ago, a journalist made the point that right wing propaganda of the Fox News variety is so easily spouted, yet so tedious to debunk. This journalist took a paragraph quote from Tucker Carlson and debunked it. It took pages.
It's easy to say Jordan destroyed all these great wing defenders. And you list Robert Pack and Dominque and guys that actually did well, counting on the reader to be lazy and not actually look at some facts. Fact is, Lewis, Rodman, Finley, you know, guys that look like today's wing defenders...they actually did fine. And you listed a bunch of bigs or scorers who didn't play D.
It was fun, but it sure takes a long time to check your bs. Without AI...man.
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There's no 13-yr period of Lebron that sniffs MJ's Bulls' career:
85-98' Jordan...... 29.1 PER... 10.2 BPM... 0.274 WS/48... 110.5 VORP.. 58.0 TS... 120 ORTG.. 32/6/5
08-20' Lebron...... 28.7 PER.,,.. 9.6 BPM... 0.253 WS/48... 104.5 VORP.. 60.1 TS... 118 ORTG.. 27/8/8
Fact checkOne DFPOTY in the last 20 years has been a guard. 5 of the 7 where guards 80s (DPOTY only started in 83).Defensive Teams have always been 2G, 2F, 1C until the last 2 years when they went positionless. But it's actually opposite as it's the guards getting left out (last year only 2 of the 10 players were guards, and 4 the year before, but none in first team). So the ab
I'm talking about all-defense
In today's game, any bum that moves their feet well on a screen roll is up for All-defense
A lot of today's perimeter players that get All-defense wouldn't get All-defense in prior eras because perimeter players weren't considered as valuable defensively as today's perimeter players, since the game was played mostly inside.. So great perimeter defenders got overlooked in prior eras, but they would get a spotlight in today's perimeter game
pretty sure "Michael Jordan 7 1984-85 1992-93 Seasons List" Jordan only had 7 years of 25-5-5 during that time. Seems like 13 years of Lebron doing that would be better. Of course, Lebron had 3 more years of doing that to boot...and I just proved MJ was being guarded by weak wing defenders compared to modern era.
33/6/6 > 25/5/5
Jordan's level was simply higher
And no matter who we put around Lebron, he isn't capable of 3-peat, 70 wins or dynasty (goat caliber), aka objectively inferior to MJ..
Heck, Lebron got 2 pippens in Wade/Bosh and still barely went 2/4 - it was the shakiest 2/4 ever because a win over babies and a teammate bailout were bookended by the goat choke and record loss - that's the worst anyone can do with Wade/Bosh
I deleted my post because just 7 for mj seemed too low. It's true he did the 25-5-5, 7 times, but one other time he was like 37-6-4. So the ball hogging cost him. Lebron at 16. wow.
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All Games of MJ vs. Reggie Lewis, starting SG vs. starting SG:
...................Date............MP...........FG%....REB...AST.....PTS
Michael Jordan....12/6/88....43:00:00........0.70........9........5........38
Reggie
Lewis...... 12/6/88....43:00:00.......0.54........6........4........33
Michael Jordan....1/15/89....41:00:00.......0.56........9.......11........42
Reggie Lewis......1/15/89....40:00:00.......0.52........7........3.........32
Michael Jordan....11/4/89....34:00:00.......0.55........5........6.........24
Reggie Lewis......11/4/89....35:00:00.......0.42........2........2.........15
Michael Jordan....3/4/90.....40:00:00.......0.47........6.......11........36
Reggie Lewis......3/4/90.....28:00:00.......0.33........3........1..........8
Michael Jordan....4/17/90....36:00:00.......0.54.......11.......6.........35
Reggie Lewis......4/17/90....37:00:00.......0.84........3........2.........24
Michael Jordan....4/20/90....35:00:00.......0.72........8.......9..........45
Reggie Lewis......4/20/90....40:00:00.......0.52........7.......4..........28
Michael Jordan....11/6/90....45:00:00.......0.50........8.......12........33
Reggie Lewis......11/6/90.... 19:00 :00......0.71.........2........1........13
Michael Jordan....11/9/90....34:00:00.......0.68........5........6.........41
Reggie Lewis......11/9/90....35:00:00.......0.35........4........3.........11
Michael Jordan....2/26/91....35:00:00.......0.58........8........4.........39
Reggie Lewis......2/26/91....23:00:00.......0.62........3........1.........10
Michael Jordan....3/31/91....51:00:00.......0.33........7........9.........37
Reggie Lewis......3/31/91....53:00:00.......0.50........3........2.........25
Michael Jordan....11/6/91....38:00:00.......0.62........3........6.........44
Reggie Lewis......11/6/91....38:00:00.......0.47........3........2.........21
Michael Jordan....12/25/91..35:00:00.......0.42........8........5.........14
Reggie Lewis......12/25/91..34:00:00.......0.47........6........2.........20
Michael Jordan....3/11/92....35:00:00.......0.60.......13.......3.........32
Reggie Lewis......3/11/92....30:00:00.......0.28........8........1.........11
Michael Jordan....4/5/92.....40:00:00.......0.42........2........2.........26
Reggie Lewis......4/5/92.....38:00:00.......0.46........1........7.........21
Michael Jordan....12/5/92....37:00:00.......0.40........3........5.........24
Reggie Lewis......12/5/92....36:00:00.......0.26........5........1.........12
Michael Jordan....1/18/93...30:00:00.......0.45........8........3.........29
Reggie Lewis......1/18/93....37:00:00.......0.50........2........1.........21
Michael Jordan....4/4/93.....40:00:00.......0.60........5........2.........32
Reggie Lewis......4/4/93.....44:00:00.......0.22........5........2.........11
MJ's Averages: 33.6 PPG, 6.9 RPG, 6.2 APG, 54.2% FG
Reggie did block MJ 4 times once tho
ok, I said he had good raw numbers. So he shot well too vs. Reggie Lewis' C's. We still don't know if that was really vs. Reggie, like cooking him. We do know he rattled Jordan and made him very inefficient the one time we know they were matched up. They could have just ran wild over those C's teams, getting those steals and easy buckets.
Fact is, Lewis, Rodman, Finley, you know, guys that look like today's wing defenders...
they actually did fine.
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No.. They didn't.. MJ averaged 30-40 on all of them
You simply don't know Jordan's career very well or forgot
No one did "fine" against Jordan unless you consider 33/6/6 on 50% "fine
ok, I said he had good raw numbers. So he shot well too vs. Reggie Lewis' C's. We still don't know if that was really vs. Reggie, like cooking him. We do know he rattled Jordan and made him very inefficient the one time we know they were matched up. They could have just ran wild over those C's teams, getting those steals and easy buckets.
Do yourself a favor and watch MJ highlights from just 1 of the games where MJ had 40+ on Lewis - it's complete domination
And previous eras had all the athletes and defenders that today's game has - we've been over some of them.. The average height was TALLER in the 80's and 90's than now, so Jordan faced more length back then
It's interesting because the 80's and 90's had MORE tweener-type guys that could slow down Lebron like Boris Diaw did - there were tons of Diaws like Terry Cummings, Antoine Carr, Jerome Jersey, Anthony Mason, Oakley, Cliff Robinson, Otis Thorpe, Cliff Livingston, X-Man, Rodman, McDyess - there were more beefy guys like Rodney Rogers or Clarence Weatherspoon or Karl Malone.. Lebron would have his hands full with the physicality and packed paints - he would need great mid-range to shoot over packed paints just like all good scorers back then and this is why today's ball-dominator would suffer back then - there were no open paints, so great shooting was required, aka Alex English, Bernard King, etc were fantastic mid-range shooters
I watched a game...https://youtu.be/tPNNdJLfKEg?si=b27OtJU_....
Reggie Lewis is painfully thin. I'd say idk 60% of the points were vs him that Jordan got. He was hot for sure.
Lewis listed at 194. I was wrong twice. He not a modern wing defender. And will concede he didn't hold Jordan down.
to be very honest, idk man is it the health problems showing in Lewis. So weak.
I'm talking 6'6'' 225 Kawhi's and Jaylen Browns and Jimmie Butlers. You know, like Jordan's 6'6'' 220. I mean is he ever. EVER guarded by his same build? It's always ALWAYS 190lbs. 6'10 250.
They didn't have 6'6'' 225 with the big vert back then. There was one. Now there are a lot.
I mean if they did come close, those guys weren't playing defense. They were getting 30ppg.
Butler 6′ 6″, Weight 229 lbs
J. Brown. 6'6'' 225
Kawhi 6'6'' 225
Jordan 6'6'' 220 or so.
Not 6'7'' 194 and anemic.
Hugo Gonzalez 19 years old. 6'6" (1.98m) and around 210 lbs, a big guard/wing with historically massive hands (10.25 inches at the combine).
Jordan Walsh's officially listed size remains 6'6" (1.98m) and 205 lbs (93kg). While his core measurements haven't significantly changed, reports indicate he has undergone a physical transformation by adding muscle mass and improving his physique.
Recent reports and team staff have noted that Walsh has undergone a physical transformation since joining the Celtics, "packing on more muscle" to better prepare his body for the demands of the NBA. Veteran teammates have commented on his growth in this aspect, noting an improved physique from his rookie year.
Wingspan: He is notably long for his height, possessing a massive 7'1.75" to 7'3" wingspan, which allows him to play much bigger than his height suggests and contributes to his defensive potential.
You know, like modern nba wings do when they want to defend. Reggie Lewis, RIP, isn't that guy.
