GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
I think it really comes down to physics. Jordan was either too big and strong for his defenders or too quick. Every single guy he has a physical mismatch. Add elite athleticism and skill, you get a GOAT, which he was at the time.
Guess what, coaches see that and after 4 decades or so, they find guys that can matchup with the Jordan build. But along comes another guy who again against every single other guy, he has a physical mismatch. He is way too big and strong or way too fast (and strong). So, you get a GOAT at this time. This time has evolved from that time. So, he is the new overall GOAT.
One big fat man like Diaw playing tough D for 19 shots against Lebron doesn't mean all big fat men in the 1990s are going to have similar success.
MJ averaged 30-40 on all of them
You simply don't know Jordan's career very well or forgot
No one did "fine" against Jordan unless you consider 33/6/6 on 50% "
Jordan didnt average that vs Finley I dont think. I read (and posted) like 25ppg on what I suspect is bad shooting. It said they played 11 times.
And I don't see how you can say Jordan did anything against Rodman when Dumars was guarding him most. Rodman would deny him the ball, foul him, be a menace. It's Dennis. I am sure Jordan got some points vs Rodman when he was guarding him, what do you think, 40 in his life? 100? idk. was Rodman on him longer than that? Seriously. Do you know? Or is it easier to say, MJ cooked Rodman.
No.. They didn't.. MJ averaged 30-40 on all of them
Michael Jordan and Michael Finley played against each other in 11 NBA regular season games. Jordan's teams (Chicago Bulls and Washington Wizards) had a 6-5 record against Finley's teams (Phoenix Suns and Dallas Mavericks).
Finley averaged 21.1 points, 4.5 rebounds, and 2.7 assists in those 11 contests, while Jordan averaged 24.6 points, 5.7 rebounds, and 4.2 assists
idk dude if I didnt know better i'd say you simply don't know Jordan's career very well or forgot.
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bballref understates the weights of prior eras:
Michael Jordan and Michael Finley played against each other in 11 NBA regular season games. Jordan's teams (Chicago Bulls and Washington Wizards) had a 6-5 record against Finley's teams (Phoenix Suns and Dallas Mavericks). Finley averaged 21.1 points, 4.5 rebounds, and 2.7 assists in those 11 contests, while Jordan averaged 24.6 points, 5.7 rebounds, and 4.2 assistsidk dude if
Wizards years doesn't count just like Dillon Brooks destroying Lebron don't count.. the stats that I posted at the top of this page only looked at his 13-year Bulls career
Secondly, bballref understates the weights from prior eras (shown above)... I made a big thread about it on another forum with countless examples - they understate everyone by 10-40 pounds.
And no one that weighs 220 could stay in front of MJ, such as Rodman, Finley, Sean Elliott, Hill, Dale Ellis, Drexler, Mason, Cliff Robinson, tons of guys
So you're making stuff up... The reality is that today's game lacks the height at the SG and SF spot to defend MJ - he would destroy today's small ball and shorter players.. The average height is 1 inch shorter than the 80's and 90's, while there are few 6'6" and 6'7" SG's - alot of those guys play SF or PF in today's game
But along comes another guy who again against every single other guy, he has a physical mismatch. He is way too big and strong or way too fast (and strong). So, you get a GOAT at this time.
If fat Boris Diaw can lock up Lebron, then chiseled Terry Cummings, Anthony Mason, Rodman, or Otis Thorpe would lock him up and manhandle him.. They would make Lebron quit like he did in 2010, 2011, 2024 and many other Playoffs.
Btw Iguodala is 6'6" and 220, yet he held Lebron to under 40% shooting, so Jordan would completely shut down Lebron.
Also, when you're talking about Lebron being a mismatch, you're talking about Lebron averaging only 25 or 28 ppg, while MJ was averaging 37 and 35, or 40 ppg in the playoffs... So there's no comparison - Lebron NEVER killed defenders like Jordan, and never won like Jordan.. . That's why there's only 1 goat - only 1 guy killed defenders that much or won that much.
Again, stop the lies
I'm talking about all-defense In today's game, any bum that moves their feet well on a screen roll is up for All-defense A lot of today's perimeter players that get All-defense wouldn't get All-defense in prior eras because perimeter players weren't considered as valuable defensively as today's perimeter players, since the game was played mostly inside.. So great perimeter defe
Fact check
Every year until the last two years the team is made up of teams of 2 guards, 2 forward and 1 center, so logic has it that the splits would be similar between now and then. The 80s teams were not made up of all centers and bigs.
If Wizards years don't count how come 40 year old LeBron losing in the 1st round with Luka who had just joined the Lakers off an injury is always so important to you?
If Wizards years don't count how come 40 year old LeBron losing in the 1st round with Luka who had just joined the Lakers off an injury is always so important to you?
Losing in the 1st Round with the best help in the league (Luka) is bad
Losing in the 1st Round with AD or Luka is really bad
I don't see how that's controversial
Fact check
Every year until the last two years the team is made up of teams of 2 guards, 2 forward and 1 center, so logic has it that the splits would be similar between now and then. The 80s teams were not made up of all centers and bigs.
The point is that today's game seeks out any long wing and considers them for All-defense, while the post format of previous eras didn't value long wings as much, despite having plenty of them.
a short point guard that averages 2 steals might get All-NBA back then but they wouldn't today in favor of a pippen-type jaden mcdaniels or something...
So the "Pippens" of the league (long wings) didn't get noticed in prior eras because it wasn't a perimeter game - Pippen only got noticed because he played alongside MJ and they were breaking the mold by not having rim protection..
Similar to Pippen, guys like Lewis or Drexler or Finley would be All-defense if they played next to MJ, or even Detlef Schrempf or Kemp.. But they weren't otherwise getting noticed because the format didn't highlight their defense like today's game does..
1) If fat Boris Diaw can lock up Lebron, then chiseled Terry Cummings, Anthony Mason, Rodman, or Otis Thorpe would lock him up and manhandle him.. They would make Lebron quit like he did in 2010, 2011, 2024 and many other Playoffs.2) Btw Iguodala is 6'6" and 220, yet he held Lebron to under 40% shooting, so Jordan would completely shut down Lebron.3) Also, when you're talking a
There's no viable response to the 3 points made above - they're just facts - Lebron is a massive fraud
I just looked up all the SG's in today's NBA and none of them are 6'7", and only a couple are 6'6".. Many of the best SG's today are 6'3" or 6'4" like Norman Powell, Ant and Donovan Mitchell, or they're 6'5" like Booker, Lavine and Sharpe.
Otoh, the 90's had plenty of 6'7" SG's like Reggie Miller, Clyde Drexler, Dale Ellis, Dan Majerle, Reggie Lewis, Reggie Theus, Willie Anderson, Malik Sealy, Tony Campbell, and many more - this is all from the 1990 season.. There were also a ton of 6'6" SG's like Ron Harper, Nick Anderson, Michael Cooper and more
So you guys are just liars - it's confirmed...
Previous eras were superior physical specimens and knew how to play real basketball, not today's "3ball" - a dumbed-down version of the game
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Thread Cliffs
Based on the positions listed this season on bballref, today's game has zero starting SG's listed at 6'7", and only a couple listed at 6'6".
The best SG's today are 6'3" or 6'4" like Norman Powell, Ant and Donovan Mitchell, or they're 6'5" like Booker, Lavine and Sharpe..
In contrast to today's game having zero 6'7" SG's, there were between 5 and 15 SG's listed at 6'7" each year in the 90's, and many more listed at 6'6".. For example, the 6'7" SG's in 1990 include Reggie Miller, Clyde Drexler, Dale Ellis, Dan Majerle, Reggie Lewis, Reggie Theus, Willie Anderson, Malik Sealy, Tony Campbell, and more.. There were also a ton of 6'6" SG's like Ron Harper, Nick Anderson, Michael Cooper and more.
The average height for SG's in 1990 was 6'6" compared to 6'4" today.. Overall, the league average height today is 1-2 inches shorter than the 80's or 90's.
Losing in the 1st Round with the best help in the league (Luka) is bad
Losing in the 1st Round with AD or Luka is really bad
I don't see how that's controversial
Then Jordan's wizards years count in all discussions. And do did all the years he didn't bother playing at all because he didn't really care much about playing or his body couldn't handle it.
Lebron has over 600 more games played than Jordan on his legs, there's no one even close to him on longevity+playing level
Jordan had George Gervin, Orlando Woolridge, and Charles Oakley. Won 30 games. Gervin won more scoring titles than any player Lebron has ever played with.
My original thing I was throwing out there was that I think Jordan could replace a near MVP, near 30 ppg scorer, that is, Jaylen Brown so far this year, and he would be better, albeit slightly. That Jordan would get the benefits of certain assumptions. And when those assumptions were applied to something called "a career average Lebron James", that Lebron would make a team today a decent amount better than Jordan would.
That Jordan as described imo is making every team better if he were to replace their best player except a small handful, and the Lebron one is making every team better, and by a good margin.
So Brown could average 31 a game vs the most sickest defenders this year who knows. Jordan could show up and get 33 over those say 20 games and it would be expected if we ran the experiment a few times. I'm not gonna get in the weeds anymore of oh MJ shot 3-11 and was blocked 4 times, yeah but he redeemed himself, but yeah but he said this and that, and the dude was really skinny, etc. Lebron can take 18 shots vs 1000 guys in this world. It makes no difference to my I don't want to call it theory...to my thing that I was saying on this poker forum with a sporting events like separate forum.
Jordan had George Gervin, Orlando Woolridge, and Charles Oakley. Won 30 games. Gervin won more scoring titles than any player Lebron has ever played with.
mj played like 10 games with gervin in his career
Yes and a 40 year old LeBron had played about 20 games with a Luka that just come off an injury and was from another team and had completely changed the Lakers last year. But Fallguy always counts it as some huge failure on LeBron's resume that he didn't win with Luka.
The list below highlights players widely regarded as top wing or perimeter defenders for each NBA team in the 2024-2025 season:
Atlanta Hawks: Dyson Daniels
Boston Celtics: Jrue Holiday
Brooklyn Nets: Royce O'Neale
Charlotte Hornets: P.J. Washington
Chicago Bulls: Patrick Williams
Cleveland Cavaliers: Evan Mobley
Denver Nuggets: Aaron Gordon
Detroit Pistons: Ausar Thompson
Golden State Warriors: Draymond Green
Houston Rockets: Dillon Brooks
Indiana Pacers: Pascal Siakam
Los Angeles Clippers: Kawhi Leonard
Los Angeles Lakers: Jarred Vanderbilt
Memphis Grizzlies: Santi Aldama
Miami Heat: Jimmy Butler
Milwaukee Bucks: Giannis Antetokounmpo
Minnesota Timberwolves: Jaden McDaniels
New York Knicks: OG Anunoby
San Antonio Spurs: Victor Wembanyama
Identifying the single best wing defender for every NBA team is tough, as roles and matchups change, but top contenders often include lockdown specialists like Jalen Williams (OKC), Jaden McDaniels (MIN), Dillon Brooks (HOU), OG Anunoby (NYK), and versatile defenders like Jaylen Brown (BOS), with teams like the Thunder, Celtics, and Rockets excelling due to multiple elite stoppers.
Here's a breakdown by team/notable players, recognizing that these can shift:
Top-Tier Lockdown Wings (Often Cited)
Oklahoma City Thunder: Jalen Williams, alongside Shai Gilgeous-Alexander and Chet Holmgren, forms a defensive core.
Minnesota Timberwolves: Jaden McDaniels is a premier perimeter stopper.
Houston Rockets: Dillon Brooks brings intense, high-level wing defense.
New York Knicks: OG Anunoby is a perennial All-Defensive candidate, capable of guarding multiple positions.
Boston Celtics: Jaylen Brown is an elite on-ball defender, complementing Tatum.
