(2-5)Defending against OOL turn donk?
Hand is 2-5 at a local casino the buy-in cap is 1000. Both hero and V have 1k effective.
Table has been playing very solid for 2-5 standards lots of pre-flop chops and raise and take its also more 3-betting than your average 2-5 table. Hero has seen V around the room before and want to say he is a studied recreational. we later (after this hand but same session) had a hand go (hero OOP V is IP) raise 15 3! 55, 4Bet to 125 flop K75ssh Hero B25% V call, Turn 3c check, check, river Ad check, V B33%, Hero calls and V has AT suited. So fairly standard hand (maybe a light peel on flop by V but otherwise thought standard).
Hero's image is probably rec to studied rec.
Folds to Hero in CO he opens to 15 A ♣ 9♥ , V calls from SB and BB folds
FLOP (31) K♣ 9 ♠ 6 ♠
Hero bets 20, V calls
Turn (67) 2♥ V donks 50, Hero ???
this isn't going to be a standard play as it doesn't change the ranges enough to allow donking yet he are facing a donk. I assume this is an under bluffed spot. What do people think a studied recs thought process is here? What bluffs play this way?
11 Replies
This line, with the large bet size, is often a good hand that is afraid the turn will check through.
It would be an interesting play with a big draw. But you risk getting raised and, even if called, you have named a high price for your own draw. Then it gets weird if you miss the river or say make a pair of Jack's.
I think most people will check call a huge draw and some will check raise. In both cases, they can bluff the river if you check the turn and they miss.
I'd probably just fold here.
Maybe kind of a cool play by him with a crappy draw like JcTc. If so, NH.
we are 1k eff?
from what i see in my local spots this is either a "take control" type of thing where V doesnt like to x/c twice with draws so will either x/c - donk or x/c -x/r so he can have the option on the river or a block bet with a made hand.
Range is probably weak Kx, QJ, JT, T9, 98, 87, 76. So imo i am raising to 125-150 here.
hes not flatting QQ, JJ, TT, 99, 88.. 77 are probably a toss up in sb from a single open from CO as a studied rec. so add in 77-44, would he flat 33 and 22? could be 22 too. i still raise turn and play a river, he has too many hands that we are beating or need to improve.
He could easily be setting a price to see the river and making it big enough that it's not comfortable for you to raise w/o a strong hand. So, raise. I agree that $125 - $150 is good. The problem is when he shoves his big draws, but we aren't looking too good against most of them, anyway.
Fold is also fine. You do have only a pair of 9s 😉
I agree with ES2. The turn donk suggests a strong hand that V doesn’t want checked through. I do not think a studied rec donks his draw on a brick turn after check calling the flop. I fold.
idk what a studied rec is but there are blunders everywhere
i would play the flop differently but call the turn
4b pot probably interesting to look at too but i dont think his play is standard lol
This is about reads
When the population donks small, they usually have a weak made hand wanting to slow you down. Raise and take it down.
But this a 75% pot bet, a big donk which usually indicates a big hand not wanting it to check thru. I think if you raise here, you’re falling into a trap, and will be re-raised.
You are bluffing the flop and meet resistance. The only bluff I see from this villain is 78 spades and you’re probably a dog to that draw. May have hit 2pair and wants to get paid.
I often float the flop, but rarely the turn
Fold
I feel like I'm in the twilight zone and people are reading a different hand than I'm reading. Everyone sees we have second pair top kicker and not a total bluff, right?
It seems like a pretty clear call. There are a ton of straight and flush draws that we're ahead of, but we don't want to bloat the pot against Kx+ by raising.
Also that 4 bet pot doesn't seem standard. For example the in position player shouldn't be betting that small on the river. It's not worth reopening the action for a b33. I suppose you could make an argument for it as an exploitative play against an opponent who never check raises as a bluff and who won't call anything more with worse than an a ace.
Preflop positions in the 4-bet pot aren't specified but you probably shouldn't be calling a 4bet with ATs either. Maybe it could be OK late position vs late position with an aggressive dynamic, but it's probably still a fold.
I look at the flop check-call, turn donk line like it's sort of a delayed check raise. It's often done by opponent who didn't want us to fold to a flop x/r, and doesn't want the turn to check through. I think this is generally an under-bluffed line.
This is usually going to be a flopped 2P or a set. Occasionally V will have turned 2P or a set in this line, but that seems less likely on this board. It would be more likely if it was K62 and the turn was the 9.
We can float sometimes, depending on how we range our opponent and how willing we are to bet or raise the river. If we make trip 9's or aces up, we may not be good, but we may be able to credibly rep the FDFD if another spade comes out.
I feel like I'm in the twilight zone and people are reading a different hand than I'm reading. Everyone sees we have second pair top kicker and not a total bluff, right It seems like a pretty clear call. There are a ton of straight and flush draws that we're ahead of, but we don't want to bloat the pot against Kx+ by raising.Also that 4 bet pot doesn't seem standard. For exampl
As played I folded, thinking the sizing and actions were underbluffed but with looking back I like the peel with position and options on rivers...
Agree on the River but for 2-5 live its prob fine as your not getting c/r bluffed enough, pre- I'd get on board with ATs folding to alot of tight players and honestly while I had played with the V before I play like 2 times a month and its been a while and I certainly didn't remember anything that stood out about the V...as it was I had been very snug during the session but was light here with A9 suited, and actually had thought to block river in the moment which now post think is the best play on the river but ended up checking to call and then called his very small bet...think he is allowed to bet AT as a bluff on the turn which prob works better since I'm sure my check range their is prob a little unprotected.)
Seems very weird that V is 3betting ATs and then calling a 4bet IP ... but now has a calling range in SB vs. CO. Is it possible he's trapping? Or more likely he can't find the raise or fold with As2s?
CO vs. BB on this flop CO checks back over 50% with A9o and more like 75% of the time with your combo.
Turn is weird street poker, doubt anybody would be shocked that solver basically pure checks. Could be anything but as said by others I'd lean heavily towards value as a first guess.
Just fold the turn. Gonna be something value that doesnt want u to check turn thru.
