Another AA preflop spot / 2-5
2-5 , 1k effective
9 handed
Mp1 pro (we have a bunch of history and respect each others game, its an untold agreement that
I hardly know what "we don't battle" means, but if I'm right, click it back. Pro should shove or fold since you are sending him a message -- I don't agree with this at all, and I consider you guys to be cheating. Fish/whale can do whatever he wants.
So, cheating... My husband and I play at the same table all the time, and we never do this -- and would never consider it.
Spoiler
my standard play with AA multiway is just to fastplay it, so i jammed, bb tank folds, mp1 calls with KK, board runs out dry J8432 or something, bb confirms that he would’ve bricked out too. Mp1 tells me after the hand that i should’ve just flatted to keep fish in, he was right judging by the responses, blunder on my part.
Mp1 is not as good as you think he is and you should ignore his advice moving forward.
Yeah, that sounds a little like collusion, him wanting you to call to keep the fish in.
Keeping the fish in is good, but not that great, in that there are certain reverse implied odds. AA and KK almost always gii postflop, but the fish is going to sometimes fold when he misses, and will sometimes make more than one pair and beat both AA and KK.
idk. his advice is pretty good. i dont think he wants you to keep the fish in for collusion purposes, it just sounds like you're friendly with him and he saw you made a big mistake that costed both of you ev. i had started trying to do the ev calc on this to prove it with the ranges you provided but its a pain in the ass and feels like kind of a waste of time
would also suspect the softplay is only in your head and the reason it seems like you guys dont put in money against each other is you're just kind of relatively nitty 2/5 grinders playing 8 handed poker lol
how fast did he call the jam?
understand its multiway which changes things but fwiw at 200bb given positions with no cold call flatter your hand is primarily a flat facing 4b
There are some negative implied odds of keeping the fish in against 2 big pairs. If the fish has a pp, suited broadway, or a suited connector, and gets it in with a set, making a pair, or with a decent draw, then he is close to playing correctly, and you don't gain much. If he has 98s and continues with a pair when an ace or king doesn't hit, he is about 20% 3-way. Set mining and folding when he misses might be slightly profitable for him, so bad for you all.
i mean the read in op is "stacks off easily in low spr situations" and op thinks he is going to overcall ~15% of hands if he flats. i think you'll be ok if you let him see the flop at spr 1
Whale is calling range the 225$ which is like 56s+ 22+,KJo+, ATo+ , if i jam i think he is only calling TT+ AQ+ - this is from op. if this holds i think he has axss too and some amount of suited 1g and some random stuff - v discounted 76o, k2ss, j6 etc.
if you are afraid to let him see the flop w this range or think hes playing correctly or going to turn a profit vs 2 ranges of the top 2% of hands (facing a relatively large 4b) idk what to tell u.
I don't think he is going to play correctly or see a profit. However, it is closer than it seems. If he gii on the flop 20% to win with a pair 3-way, he is not losing all that much and you all are not gaining that much.
ok now do ATo
like 40% of that range is hard dominated by KK+ (less so with blockers obviously but very real chance he ends up losing something like 25+bb on his pre call and getting it in nearly / completely dead post for another 150bb
also the times he has 66 or w/e and puts it in on 832r
Yeah, that sounds a little like collusion, him wanting you to call to keep the fish in.
Keeping the fish in is good, but not that great, in that there are certain reverse implied odds. AA and KK almost always gii postflop, but the fish is going to sometimes fold when he misses, and will sometimes make more than one pair and beat both AA and KK.
Lol.
There are some negative implied odds of keeping the fish in against 2 big pairs. If the fish has a pp, suited broadway, or a suited connector, and gets it in with a set, making a pair, or with a decent draw, then he is close to playing correctly, and you don't gain much. If he has 98s and continues with a pair when an ace or king doesn't hit, he is about 20% 3-way. Set mining a
Riiiiiight. A whale will never make huge mistakes post-flop and he will always show up with a hand that has 20% or will fold 99 on 378r when he doesn't hit a set. Also we lose to KK like 20% of the time, perhaps we should just fold pre.
I don't think he is going to play correctly or see a profit. However, it is closer than it seems. If he gii on the flop 20% to win with a pair 3-way, he is not losing all that much and you all are not gaining that much.
Because again, a WHALE is somehow going to be playing perfectly post-flop.
Of course the whale is not going to be playing well postflop. However, any pair he gets it in with is going to be at least 10%, often 20%. He needs maybe 27% 3-way with dead money. Sometimes, he will make a good draw, or a set or 2 pair. I am not saying it isn't profitable to have him in. It just isn't all that profitable, because the range he gii with is not that far behind his pot odds.
idk man it seems like hes willing to punt 20+bb in ev in this hand and you dont seem to realize what a big deal that is
if you want to try to do the math i think we're all willing to look at it given how much interaction this thread has had but you just seem to not really get a guy calling off 150bb with 20% less equity than required in the worlds most face up tight range spot is a monster mistake. pre is also worse than it looks for him because he's going to struggle to realize equity here given ranges, doubly so with how you all think people are going to play post (nearly everyone is talking about jamming flop at spr 1 lol)
There is some value to keeping the fish in. I don't know how to really do the math on it. Yes, the money doesn't always go in on the flop. It is good if the fish calls the flop and folds the turn, but he also gets to see another card that way. There is no way he gii without at least a pair or draw, so he has some equity. He doesn't need that much equity 3-ways.
That doesn't mean the correct play is to shove. The reg was probably only calling with KK. The question is whether he was only 3-betting KK. If he wasn't softplaying as much as OP thinks, you do get him to fold AK/QQ and possibly a bluff he will cbet with, so calling is probably better. Plus it is somewhat better for the fish to call.
I am not saying 5! is better. I think call is much better to keep AK/QQ in and because there is some value in keeping the fish in. I think there is value to keeping the fish in, but it is not that great.
Not a true grunch because I saw the thread already had 3 pages of replies and curiosity drove me to skim about halfway down the first page, enough to see the debate about flatting or jamming pre kick off.
I can see arguments for jamming and flatting. My hunch is the real-world EV's are pretty close. Which way I'd lean could just come down to whatever I think my table image is. The worse my image, the more I'd jam.
Spoiler
my standard play with AA multiway is just to fastplay it, so i jammed, bb tank folds, mp1 calls with KK, board runs out dry J8432 or something, bb confirms that he would’ve bricked out too. Mp1 tells me after the hand that i should’ve just flatted to keep fish in, he was right judging by the responses, blunder on my part.
I guess V doesn't think your 5B-jamming range is always and only AA. Wonder what his 4B-fold range is.
In case the snark isn't obvious - somehow people get wrapped up thinking our 5B jam won't get called when we have AA, but those same people will tell you in another thread that our opponent's 4B range is super-strong and will never fold when we have TT/AK.
It's low stakes. Few opponents have a 4B-fold range. When they 4B, they're not usually folding to a 5B jam. If they were going to fold to a jam, they wouldn't have 4B. They would have just flat called.
Nice hand. Well played. No blunder at all, IMO. If you flatted, the BB probably calls, and you win another $225 from him, at the risk of not getting stacks in with MP1.
Ez ship
