Early stages standard spot: sizing and thought process
WPT PRIME $1100 200|400|400
9 handed
Preflop
LJ (Tight aggressive reg ~43.5K)... RFI 2.5bb
Folds to Hero (~13.5K) in BB KcKd... 3b 9bb,
LJ calls
Flop
19.5bb 7s6h6d
Hero... Cbets (obviously?) but what size?
We don't have nut advantage as he could definitely have 76 66 77 but we have equity advantage because many worse pp and plethora of draws and backdoors are in his range so we definitely need to build a pot especially since I want to gii soon ... Not now ... But ott perhaps ... a larger bet will fold out a lot of worse calling hands and is unbalanced while a smaller ¼ sizing gives a good price keeping in all his garbage AND the ¼ sizing means that my sizing has bluffs as well if the villain is elastic to my sizing...
But what if he is not elastic? Now we have to size up correct? I saw a lot of "regs" at this tournament who seemed to be inelastic so just putting in a robotic "small down bet because he's a reg and I have to be balanced" doesn't always apply or does it? If it does how does ½ size sound?
Also was my preflop sizing to small?
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11 Replies
So if I read this right you're almost 35bb deep? In that case your sizing is fine.
Sizing down on the flop is fine too at this depth, you have like 25.5bb in a pot of 19.5bb. You can bet 20-25% and still shove the turn.
I've been thinking about whether sizing up is a good idea, but I don't think it's necessary. You might get a lighter float from a smaller flop bet, and I think with either size you might get a worse overpair to commit.
I don’t think you credit villain with hitting this flop. You open he calls = yea, that’s his range
But he opened and you 3bet, that’s totally different. His strong range calling your 3bet means he probably whiffed this board. It’s a great flop for you.
Even if you’re targeting QQ, I wouldn’t bet too big on the flop. I kinda like 1/3 pot, rather than 1/4 or 1/2, but I don’t think it matters much, but I would be closely watching his reaction to this bet.
If he calls quickly, I’ll probably pot the turn
If he him haw tanks & calls, I’ll probably go small and try to keep him on the hook.
You do have a nut advantage. A nut advantage refers to high equity hands, not neccessarily literal nuts. So hands like overpairs I would consider nuts here, especially given the very low SPR.
I think anything b20-40 seems pretty reasonable on the flop. I would probably cheat my sizings a bit, sizing up with TT JJ which are a little more vulnerable and sizing down with QQ+ trying to encourage calls from A-high or backdoors.
I wouldn't really be shoving turn, you can still go small. Don't worry about stacking QQ JJ, you will get the money regardless. You're trying to make the most vs his weaker floats.
I like your pre-flop 3-bet sizing as we are OOP.
On the flop I bet 6.5 bb's (which is how much we raised) as it will be about 25% effective stack so it won't look pot committing and it is roughly 33% pot size so could be anything.
On the turn I would either jam because we have 19 bb's left and the pot would be at 33 bb's or check it back so when we jam the river it can look like a bluff. It sometimes depends on what the turn is so like if it is a Q we can make it look like we don't have AQ/KQ/AA/KK. Or if it is a small card we would make it look like we don't have a PP. We can also let Villain catch up a little so if they hit a pair by the river they may either lead out or call our jam.
anyone checking this? obv have seen a big push to checking out of position in 3b pots esp when the flop is bad for 3b range. If we can c/r or c/c here with hands like ours, it helps protect us in checking AK or AQ without him being able to just bet every time we check.
anyone checking this? obv have seen a big push to checking out of position in 3b pots esp when the flop is bad for 3b range. If we can c/r or c/c here with hands like ours, it helps protect us in checking AK or AQ without him being able to just bet every time we check.
I'm probably just range betting this flop with a small size after I 3-bet, although in theory we probably should be doing some checking. The reason I range bet is just to simplify my strategy and avoid needing to balance betting and checking ranges. People tend to overfold slightly, so a small bet is typically profitable with our weaker holdings. With our exact hand we don't mind generating some weak floats and/or inducing a raise.
If you're going to have a checking range I think KK is one of the better strong hands to check though. You don't need protection as much as you would with a hand like TT. Sometimes QJs will turn top pair or something and then you can stack them. Also you're short enough that you can still get the money in with two bets on the turn and river if the flop checks through.
anyone checking this? obv have seen a big push to checking out of position in 3b pots esp when the flop is bad for 3b range. If we can c/r or c/c here with hands like ours, it helps protect us in checking AK or AQ without him being able to just bet every time we check.
I'm probably just range betting this flop with a small size after I 3-bet, although in theory we probably shoul
Yeah I feel like some of the material I've looked at would indicate a check here, but I feel like I play it and think about it largely as you describe too, and I was struck that everyone else seemed to also.
Speaking for myself, I think our actual hand plays fine either way. It's the weaker hands in our range that I find are much more difficult to play when we have a checking range. Hands like suited Broadways should likely be mixing between barreling, check/fold giving up, and check/raise bluffing. It's very challenging to balance these sorts of spots without getting out of line in one way or another.
On the other hand I suppose by betting flop small we just delay the decision point by one street. We're still going to have to balance our range on the turn. This might be a good spot to study and work on incorporating a flop checking range.
I think you'd need to be deeper to consider checking. You might worry about getting 200bbs in on this flop. Here we start the hand with 35bbs in a 3-bet pot; we go to the flop with like 1.3 SPR. This is a nutted hand and we're comfortable getting it in.
I think you'd need to be deeper to consider checking. You might worry about getting 200bbs in on this flop. Here we start the hand with 35bbs in a 3-bet pot; we go to the flop with like 1.3 SPR. This is a nutted hand and we're comfortable getting it in.
To be clear, I would be checking with the idea of never folding. I guess it depends on opponent's tendencies, is he more likely to get aggro facing a downbet or a check on the flop? I just want to maximize the hands that my opp gets in with. So like what does this opp do with JTs? Float a downbet and hope I check turn? Just fold to bet but stab if checked to? Check if checked to and hope to turn equity?
Thank you everyone. Stellar discussion and advice. Happy new year!
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