Not Quite Threadworthy--Low Stress Strat Questions

This thought mostly driven by a frustrating session of being dealt really marginal starting hands (and worse) only, but hypothetical...

let's say Hero is on the button and, in no particular order or position, a 70/12 fish a 50/8 fish and a 30/2 fish limp. In general they are "sticky" passive fish, but this probably means they call close to equilibrium frequencies post (especially HU) albeit with very few bets/raises. Roughly speaking, a 5-10bb raise is maybe 50/30/20 to go multiway/HU/buy it (and there are fish in the blinds who might cold call).

The obvious way to print here is to raise big hands big, make flops, and go to value town. The question though is - what kind of range is Hero playing on the BN here, and is there any real way to push a skill edge that doesn't involve being dealt and/or flopped good hands? I kept getting dealt things like A6o or JTo in this spot - obvious opens when folded to but less clear in this config and likely just folds?

$2/$5 at Mohegan Sun in CT

Hero is new to the table, younger white guy

Villain is also a younger player, unknown to me but seems like a fish

UTG open $15, UTG1 flat, Hero 3bet AcKs to $60, V cold call LP, blinds fold, UTG and UTG1 call.

Flop: 8c7c3s (pot: $240) UTG check UTG1 check Hero check? Villain jams $445

UTG fold UTG1 fold Hero?

Should I cbet here? No one is deep at all. Do I have enough equity to call with two overs and a backdoor NFD at less than 2SPR? Figure Villain’s range is mid-high pairs, broadway flush draws, and occasional spew.

Probably 3bet a little bigger, but also after having shoved AK into AA/KK a few more times the last couple of months (although mostly at 1-2) I might even think about calling ... the obvious problem being that random fish are going to call any2 and you are basically set mining AK. If you are 3betting KTs pure though, ignore that dumb results orientated advice.

IMO every fish in every low stakes game always puts everyone on AK with this kind of action (tbf solver LJ vs. UTG doesn't 3bet JJ much, although it doesn't call either and 3bets KTs ... so it's confusing/difficult to implement). You also block the NFD, without having it, which would make me lean fold.

Also see the TT thread, lots of people can't ever help themselves cold calling JJ/TT/99 and now they've flopped an overpair and are shoving for value (also had this happen to me recently when V shoved 99 2.5x pot into the dry side pot after cold calling preflop 3bet and short stack small shove 4bet ... didn't even understand why I'd be upset when the short stack won with JJ but my A hit after I folded flop).

Probably just shrug fold flop and label V a fish.

Agree with illiterat that flop is a shrug fold as played.

I think I would cbet with just the one player behind, planning to rep the NFD, but obviously checking an 8-high board in a four-way 3b pot is somewhat standard. It would actually be a pretty good spot to check AA or KK to xjam, just because the IP fish probably stabs a bunch of his pairs, draws, and high-card hands.

thought i responded to this earlier

i think you're asking the most difficult question to answer in llsnl in usa#9

with table dynamics, A6 is often the best hand, and on flops where the ace comes, simply checking it through is an incredibly good way to convince all villains that you don't have an ace and they'll all call off with middle pairs thinking you're bluffing at it when you bet later streets

however, they are also never folding their A8o type hands when there's an ace on the board, which makes playing a hand like A6o problematic

i do think you're looking at this the wrong way - live fish aren't following a 70/12 or 50/8 type pattern

i understand you're just throwing out random numbers - but again, that's a terrible way to profile live players because nobody plays like this

instead they are more like this

or this

they aren't thinking of getting dominated or getting the ignorant end of the straight or smaller flush - they are thinking "i have suited cards lets see a flop"

yesterday someone opened to 15 and a bunch of players called, i called with A2s and then the sb who is a maniac squeezed to 45, 4 callers and i make it 175 knowing everyone is capped except for the maniac who is most likely full of it - everyone folds except the guy to my immediate right, a guy who flatted both the 15 and the 45

we both have about 500 behind

flop comes 3 low cards mono suited - i don't have that suit - we go check check

turn comes a 4th card to the flush - he tank checks, i put out 100 he minclicks it up to 200

i quickly fold and am shocked to see him flip over AKs - he didn't have the flush, he just had A high

a few orbits later i saw the exact same thing transpire again where that guy had AQ - check called all the way and then when a guy with only 200 remaining bets 125 on the river - he then reshoves and gets the guy to fold his pocket pair for just 75 more into a pot of about 500 - he then happily shows the A high bluff

this is a young asian guy, a "thinking" player who is going to continue playing this way for quite some time because his results for this system are very good right now

i don't think his "never raise preflop and bluff in spots where it makes zero sense" can accurately be explained by an n/n split

but tldr

i think if you see people regularly limp Ax hands then you can toss out the A6o pre and flat the JTo - but if you see those guys regularly raise in early position and show A7o at showdown then when they limp you can very profitably raise Ax hands in position because you're going to be facing off against his J3s a lot more frequently than his Ax which dominates you

Thanks for the response. I had some similar thoughts in game. Just felt like this was so heavily weighted towards JJ-99 and seemed like exactly how a fish would play that hand.

The Ac thing is always confusing for me. I know that in some ways it’s good for me to have in this spot (adds 4% equity versus everything) but it also blocks so many of the hands I want Villain to have.

Regarding pre-flop, I maybe should have mentioned I was playing $600 in this spot. One of the main reasons I like playing ~100bb is that it’s just never really a disaster to get it in pre with AK. I have been flatting AK more in some spots but I don’t think I would ever flat it here in this specific one (weaker player opens small, dead money flat, lots of players behind me). Also don’t know that I need to go bigger playing off this stack size but maybe should consider $75. FWIW, there is still a good chance I would have folded to a UTG 4bet here absent the cold-caller.

In game, I did basically what you said, shrug fold and give Villain the fish tag. I was thinking about calling before the count cause I thought the jam was more like $350, but calling almost 2x pot seemed ridiculous.

After I folded Villain smirked so I said “you bluffed there?” And ofc he proudly tabled the KcJs, earning himself an easy upgrade to the whale tag and prompting me to make this post.

1-2 at Mohegan ... It's a Monday, but it's 29th of Dec. and a bunch of people are playing who basically never play in a casino the other 50 weeks of the year.

V1: Been limping any2 (sometimes blind) and calling super wide pre. and straddling UTG ... sticky post and called some people down with underpairs to the board, to win. Bought in for 300, went up over 500 after hitting, then near 300, then 400+. He has bluffed a couple of times, but more on later streets and mostly on rivers. Currently has 325-350.

V2-3: Worse than average 1-2 players, at best. 100-200

H: Started off down, now covers everyone but still down (None of the Vs have been here long enough though, so probably just see I'm up). Not shown anything weird, but won a decent number of pots without showing hands ... so probably tight old guy image.

OTTH

V1 (on my direct right): limps
H sees KQo in MP and makes it 12
V2 calls (on my direct left)
V3 calls (some blind)

Pot: ~50-rake
Flop: K82r
V3 check
V1 check
H bet 25
V2 fold
V3 fold
V1 call

Thoughts:

Pot: ~100-rake
Turn: K82 2 (now BDFD)
V1 x
I think and bet 45
V1 calls.

Thoughts:

Pot: ~190-rake
River: K82 2 K (no flush)
V1 x
H thinks maybe 30-40s and bets 85
V1 tanks, looks like he's deciding between fold and call but then shoves 260ish total
H shrugs/sighs and calls

Thoughts:

That hand looks fine to me. I might size up turn a bit. I don’t think that player type is folding any KX on the turn.

Obviously no interest in folding the river. Should chop almost always. Feel like I’ve seen clueless players shove lower full houses in that spot too (88, 2X).

Yeh, at the time I was thinking that he has a lot of non-K hands and there's basically no draws ... so I didn't want him to decide I often had a K and he should fold 66 or even 99. If I'd had AQs with a FD or something that wanted to try firing again, I'd make it more like 65.

Like many posters I find that small flop bet + larger turn bet tends to get a lot of folds when I have value. Weirdly though (small/human samples) I find that OOP small flop bet followed by x/r turn isn't respected as much (maybe because they had a good enough hand to call flop and bet turn?)

Bigger might have been better though.

Yeh, I was also sad and assumed we chopped almost always ... but he had T2s, so w/p river me.

Wow, cooler

Annoying spot vs a reg/pro. Not sure there’s anything I can do?

We have a ton of hours together.
He opens a ton of pots and is sticky. I am on the nittier side of tag and probably fold too much to him. This session, I’ve probably had to fold unimproved post flop 4 or 5 times to him

2/5/10, eff stack 1k he opens cut off to 30, I 3 bet with red 1010 to 125 from SB he calls

Flop is J85 ccc, I check he checks

Turn is Qc I check he bets 110, I fold

It’s a super annoying spot because he gets to bet with his entire range and with two over cards and no clubs, what can I do? Maybe not that annoying and an easy fold and we just move on?

If you think that's true you should be checking range on turn. Probably checking a lot of Ac hands on the flop too.

Esp. given his sizing.

One problem on the turn is that it's difficult for you to find bluffs, and raising QQ/JJ isn't really a bluff and has problems if he shoves. QJ has outs vs. random flushes but maybe there's value in some TT raises as you block his straights and also unblock his medium-low strength hands that are in front?

i could see him doing this with a deuce or 99, no way we are ever folding - if he has K8 then good for him

i think you played it fined - fwiw i would be sizing up most streets - i strongly think the real edge in llsnl is putting out big wagers which get too many folds in the early play but get people to stack off very lightly in later hands

annoying spot but you need to fold there

it's really difficult to shrug off feeling like someone is specifically targeting you and crushing you at it but that's way more the product of variance than anything else

it's a spot where he easily has the Ac and if bluffing is still likely ahead of you

Yeah I think there are far better spots to battle over than oop in a 3 bet pot vs 4 to a flush and two over cards

Basically need to either c bet then bomb turn or check raise turn and blindly bluff

feel wrath red Tens hand isn't a frustrating spot.

Seems like an easy cbet. Once flop gets checked, turn is an easy big bet spot too. I wouldn't be check/folding.

If he is opening a very wide range, then feel wrath is much more heavy in terms of having Ace of clubs and King of clubs.

For example, feel wrath can have AA with Ace of clubs and KK with King of clubs. And Villain can have a lot of suited hands of the wrong suit.

opening wide vs open/calling wide are two very different things

yes, it's frustrating for the exact reason that feels is probably folding the winning hand a good third of the time or more, but he has no position and zero reads to give any insight that he is ahead

in situations where you lose to a lot of bluffs, it's an easy fold, particularly oop and with another street of action to play in the event you call

Every single robot checks flop with 2nd pair no flush draw in these situations. Too strong to bluff, too weak to value bet.

Calling turn with third pair and a 4 flush on board means I have to call basically all rivers, because this guy will definitely bomb the river with all his bluffs.
Which…idk maybe means I should call turn and river
But it’s a pretty dirty spot given it’s a total guess

Why aren't you cbetting? Why aren't you bluffing turn?

Yeah I mean I think it's less a super difficult question and more that the answer versus these types of Vs is to just tighten up and print for value. I was mostly just complaining about not being dealt the cards for it and hoping someone would chime in with a clever way to abuse the button without getting cards 😀

I actually think a lot of regs and trying recs have a huge leak preflop in that they are conditioned to both ignore limps for ranging purposes and also size up to account for them. It's very tempting to put in big squeezes light with a button and a ton of "dead" money in earlier position, but I think people tend to significantly overlook the fact that unless the fish is VPIPing 100% or has a significant raising range that cripples the limping range, then the limp in is (even if unsound) a significantly stronger range than an open fold and the defend range of the blinds. Trying to blaze through several limps is often isolating against a reasonably strong range in the players who still call.

I will open limp a tight range (no raises) from EP if there are aggressive players like this in LP to exploit it, as after the "size up for limpers" that they do it's kind of like I am doing a 2x GTO open from EP and getting 3-bet with a range wider than my own.

And to be fair, I probably do the same thing from LP enough to be exploitable like this, but nobody is running the exploit.

Yes and no - they are obviously not opening the solver-approved top x% of hands, but I think there are plenty of fish with a large limp range that RFI about 10% that is mostly A and K-high Broadway combos. Like this is a 10.5% RFI range that I think isn't atypical for fish:

Weaker offsuit Aces are limped because they know they're not that good but they can't actually fold an Ace and the more connected and suited combos tend to get limped more because they just want to see if they can flop something cool.

Playing A6o OTB gets risky both because the loose fish have A7-A9 in range but also because you're still behind the 30/2 fish who limp-calls all kinds of premium Ax too. In practice though, my runouts that night would be something like this at best:

Hero decides to open A6o OTB, sticky fish in SB cold calls and two limpers come along.

Flop: AK2 rainbow, checks to hero who cbets and only sticky SB fish calls.

Turn: K bdfd, not my suits, x/x

River: 2 no flush, SB leads for like half pot...

good reminder of what live is like

That's just crazy that people play like that. I guess in my room we have multiple tables of 3/6 LHE with the same promos running where all of those people would sit. Last BBJ had flopped quads check it down so that someone could go runner-runner straight flush.

Going to instant reveal, and maybe a shrug "it is what it is" and don't be the results guy... but been thinking about it too much since it happened so thought I might as well post.

This is a 2-5 game at Mohegan on a Friday night, but there's two main games and this one is playing like a 1-2 with at least half the table playing like 1-2 fish limp/calling wide and playing face up when they have something. More bluffing and deeper though.
Maybe worth noting that there's been a decent HH promo. going on at Foxwoods all day, and nothing here.

V1: Says he's a rich (semi-)retired divorce lawyer (looks 40ish), and talking a lot of **** to everyone in a fun way but recently been picking on a young guy who sat down with a rolex and started talking **** while playing terrible and running great but young kid was not ready for the constant tsunami of **** talking from V1 (and the young kid is mostly quiet now). He's overbet shoved in a couple of spots, but not been called ... also generally sticky, and has had A7o like hands for a win or chop. Seems competent enough to understand preflop ranges and applying pressure.

He would probably have at least been cautioned by the dealers given the amount of **** talking, and some of the things said ... but he's tipping more than the rest of the table combined, tipping on almost every hand even if he folded preflop at points. Also **** talking the young kid by tipping more than him on the hands the young kid wins and saying "that's a real tip" etc. Often splashing the dealer well (is that the right word?) with the tips, but again no dealer has said anything.
Also pretty sure I've seen him before (not played) and the dealers have seen him before ... but then he'd be very memorable.

H Has lost QQ vs. KJ, JJ vs. KT, AK vs. Q8 on K83, etc. Won a few pots, but image is maybe TAG that is losing.

OTTH:

5 limps to H on BTN, who probably doesn't take long enough to count limpers correctly and/or think about SB/BB...
H raises to $35 with KQo
SB almost snap calls (she has a black card, and is there for the gamble)
V1 in BB calls fairly quickly
...and now everyone else pretty much shrugs and puts it in so we go _eight_ ways to the flop.

Pot: 8*35=$280
Flop: AK7r
SB checks
V1 BB snap shoves 565
3 folds to the young kid V1's been talking **** to who asks for a count, thinks a bit and says something like "it's too much" and folds (fairly sure this is like A5, but possible he thought about calling 88 I guess).
1 more fold
H on BTN tanks ... but think I have a bunch of Ax here, and even though the pot is giant it's still 2x pot into 7 players and V1 probably has all 16 combos. of A9 preflop. and can occasionally have a monster like A7 or even 77. Also SB is giving off tells that she's folding. V1 might be giving off tells that he doesn't want calls, but I've only been playing with him a couple of hours and I'm not sure (and it's not like A9 wants a call). Also haven't seen V1 do anything completely insane yet like shoving JT here... H sighs and folds
SB snap folds
BB shows KJs and talks more **** to the young kid who admits he folded a weak A.

Obviously we can argue about preflop ... probably should raise to 55, even though it's big ... or maybe limp along?

Flop ... always worth asking: is there anyway hero can/should find his cape for the hero call?