Stop and go OTR w/ flopped str8

I know this might seem results oriented but I really don't like flatting the flop. So many cards either kill our action or beat us and we have a passive villain willing to put in money so let's just do it. Very few people at this level have a raise/fold button and we are out of position. Smells of FPS.

As played I think we need to fold the river. The flush got there as did most of the two pairs.At this level, what hands could he have as bluffs or value hands that we beat? I can't see many people at this level turning JT/QT into a bluff.

Seems like we’re usually beat and those hands all call. I would check fold river.

3b flop, he’s not folding.

This. Dangerous board. I'm making it $225 to go otf. Shove turn. AP c/f river, everything got there.

I’m fine pre, but I would have to raise the flop. There are too many turn cards that can kill the action and you can’t be sure what they are.

Would have made it $150 cause I usually get called by just doubling the bet, and I mostly want to be the aggressor. Then, I’d lead the turn and go from there.

As played, you’re representing the flush with your river donk, and probably won’t get called by worse. You could go smaller instead of a shove, and save money when you’re beat. I feel pretty sure that you are beat if villain calls.

I am fully aware that villain showed strength and could have turned a full house. However, just because the nuts changed on the turn doesn’t mean he’s got it.

In my experience, with a bird in the hand (especially a 5card made hand), don’t worry about the bush. On the turn and river, cards that can fill a hand that beats you arrive. But they should be scare cards for villain too. Unless it’s something like a 4liner board, or the little side of a straight, you just shouldn’t fold 5card made hands very often.

Versus a random hand, even against this complete draw heavy board, your hand is a 92% favorite. Villain’s hand is not random, but you beat hands in his range like AK, AQ, random 2pairs, draws. You have a strong made hand, and can represent even stronger hands. You just have to convince villain that his hand is not as good as yours.

This is delicate business with me as I folded a straight yesterday and villain showed 2pair. Some folks are like this guy yesterday, always ready to get the money in, me not so much. There was a bigger straight draw available, a flush draw came in, and I knew villain was going to play for stacks. Everything is situational, but avoiding 2nd best hands is worth the effort.

Preflop, the cbet is too small on such a wet board and 3! flop. Check/reevaluate, probably fold, river. I don't see the point of the push. You aren't going to get a better hand to fold, and hard to get a worse hand to call.

I don't like the flat on the flop. Turn is a terrible card, but vs this guy a call is OK. River is also a terrible card, but good luck. Not sure what he's folding that beats you -- or what he's calling w/ that doesn't.

Grunch:

PRE - raise bigger. At least $15. Might go $20 from EP/MP in a splashy game.

FLOP - Don't f**k about. Just pot it. I might even go 1.5x pot. We flopped the nut straight on a two-flush board, with no flush card in our hand, and no chance to improve, only a chance of our hand being downgraded.

No one who has any piece of the board is folding to a single bet, even a huge one. No one who missed is calling just because we bet small. The $25 bet into the $40 pot is just creating awkward SPR's on later streets.

As played, when V raises, I'm 3B'ing huge.

TURN - Well, that's a $hlt card to see roll off. I probably check. Not sure if I could find a fold for $120 into $190. V could just have trip K's, but my MUBs warning system is screaming "Boat!"

RIVER - why would you jam the 8s? Are we trying to turn our hand into a bluff? If we check, there's a reasonable chance he just checks back with KX and we win. Doubtful he's folding a boat. He might not fold a flush, not that I think he has many flushes here, unless maybe he has J9ss.

Yikes.

I dont know I just kind of got blendered. I tried to talk myself into V having AK OTT.

Result:

Read the reveal, but before that I was assuming that OP put V on the same hand on the flop and decided to try bluffing them off a chop.

To be fair, I'm not sure I love flop 3bet ... are we just 3bet flop with all 16 combos of AJ? What else, KK? AsTs?

Would probably x/shove turn, given the size. Esp. after x/r flop I think if most people have a full house here then they still bet big even though they don't need to deny equity. So half pot bet will much more often be AJ/J9 or draws.

I mostly hate the river donk shove for the same reasons I like it on the turn.

Are we turning Broadway into a bluff? A boat or flush is never folding. You know I can justify some loose aggressive play, but the river jam is a head scratcher. Jamming turn is much better. OTR, check call or check fold based on gut. I think a shove here is Rampage level punting to the flushes that just hit and the boats.

Does that mean you were shoving for value, hoping AK would call?

I don't think a loose passive fish is flatting pre but then raising this flop with AK.

Seems like a lot of debates in Banana threads stem from his reads.

Here, V is described as loose passive, but he's raising our flop bet next to act, in a spot where a lot of V's would be happy to slow play their nutted hands to invite the others to come along. Seems like he really likes his hand, and so I'd throw balance out the window and just try to get as much money into the pot as possible before an action killing card rolls off.

V having 2P or bottom set seems as likely as AJ. Seems like he's got a fair bit of J9 here, too. Plenty of hands we can cooler by 3B'ing.

V didn't x/r the flop. He was last to act. His turn bet size of $120 into $190 is a smidge over 60% pot. It actually seems pretty large for a low stakes rec, and leaves less than a PSB behind. Seems to me like a lot of bad recs won't go too big with thick value.

If we called flop to trap V's sets and 2P, he just boated up. Hard to think he's raising flop with just a flush draw and barreling the turn on a board pairing K. Check-jamming turn seems like over-playing our hand.

The main hand that we can beat that I could see being played this way is J9ss, and that hand improves on the river. V could also be free-rolling us with AJss.

3bet the flop to $200+ with the plan to jam most turns.

It's a bad play to just call the flop raise here with the nut straight versus this described Villain at these stack sizes. Let's fast play the nuts and give ourselves the best chance to stack him.

I wouldn't be worried as much as our line looking super strong because V isn't even thinking about our range much and is basically just playing his own two cards which he seems to really like on the flop.

I want to point something out here: I play the hand waaaay differently vs this fish guy than I would vs a thinking player. Vs this guy I think he has AK and even AA OTR, as well as all the AJ and KJ. So like 20 combosish. And then KQ and KT QQ and TT thats ahead... So I felt like my hand was very 50th percentile against his range. The problem is where do I check-fold? Turn? River for less than pot?

I guess turn is the decision point like illiterat said, either check-rip or check-fold OTT

..in hindsight I think my line is better if we were deeper and V was thinking enough to make folds OTR with AJ or even a baby flush if he has that.

This is all gibberish to me. If you can't figure out that you made a big mistake on the flop, then it's hopeless for you...