Should hero call a jam with bottom two in this super unusual spot?

His line is similar to a call and back jam which is often indicative of a big draw. I think I call this one off blocking the main value hands, sets.

Ditto the above.

Any reads on this player? I know players who limp w/ KK, but they usually don't just flat the $15.

Nothing more than him being an experienced and tricky player.

Agreed. H needs 38.2% by my count, and V doesn't have to need very many Kc or other XXcc hands for H to get there with bottom two, even if you give V all of the sets too.

The catch is that a studied V should be uber-tight in the SB, 1st to act vs a button straddle, and might've been going for a LRR with KK. At 60-65 straddles deep pre, I guess I'm just going to have to see.

Hmm. Interesting spot.

The old school advice of, "don't go broke in a limped pot, " could apply here.

The problem I see is that when you're ahead, you only have like 70% equity for example best case scenario vs KQo, and does he ever really do this with a one pair hand? I don't think so. Even against JTs flush draw you still only have 63%.

However, when you're behind vs a set or better two pair you're absolutely crushed and have less than 10% equity.

Granted there are a lot of flush draws in comparison to strong 2 pair + hands. Really it's a math problem that's going to depend on the ranges you put him on. With the dead money already in the pot it could be close. I think it would be a much clearer call if you had something like K6o that dominates some other 2 pair hands.

All things considered I think I would ask myself if this player would ever do this with 1 pair or with a bare flush draw? If so I call.

Against a good tricky player I would think this line represents at least 2 pair plus or a combo draw.

So given description of the opponent I would fold.

In a straddle pot a lot of players will limp the SB with KK, but then they'd also do that with AK and AA, hoping for a raise especially from a steal happy Straddle. This could be, more likely is, a speculative hand hoping for a cheap flop.

That's a weird lol-live-poker tell. He was gonna call then saw you raise and decided to go with it...I can see it being a big draw, a set, K6s/K4s (if any combos exist). Hard to say which, right? Maybe sets are less likely bc they'd rather encourage a call.

I would think a trapping AK/AA would have gone for a check raise of the $15, not a call, because you don't want to keep messing around at that point.

Yeah that was my thinking too. I'm blocking the sets, unblocking clubs, and he shouldn't have KK after limping.

Yes hero needs to win about 39% of the time to break even on the call. If villain ever plays AK/AA/flush draws this way, then it's a snap call for sure.

Agreed on the catch. There are GTO models that have the SB limping their entire range vs a BTN straddle (with many limp-reraises, of course).

Definitely a tight spot.

Sure, I totally agree with the old school wisdom of not going broke in limped pots (when in the BB in regular pots, or the straddle in straddled pots).

For sure I'm either slightly ahead or miles behind.

Yes I think this player can potentially do this with AK/AA, and perhaps some flush draws or the 75 OESD. But realistically my gut tells me that this is slightlymore likely to be a value jam.

An interesting question is what type of hands he calls vs the original bet of 15, but jams vs the later raise to 50? Could it be a slowplay that switched to a fastplay once it realised another player had big interest in the pot? Could it be a draw that now wants to gamble/jam and get folds, as there is more money in the pot?

Yes it can definitely be a big hand with the SB limp, but I agree a speculative hand is more likely in general.

Definitely really to see villain initially call the 15 but then reraise when he was instead facing a raise. Yeah I think KK definitely doesn't want to jam here due to massive missed value. He can have the smaller sets of course but I'm blocking a large portion of those with my hand. So that essentially leaves strong Kx, AA, and flush draws.

For sure AK/AA prefer to check raise given that it's multiway and after so any limps it's fairly likely someone has at least something or other - so good to check raise flop and perhaps jam turn.

I probably call it off, absent any live tells or a detailed read that this guy would play 2P+ as a flat call if he thought it was heads up.

I somewhat expect the reveal to be the same hand trying to get us off a chop.

I don't know ... I think SB can easily play all the sets this way, even KK.

UTG esp. and even LJ just don't hit much on K64, so I can see calling all sets where the only thing we might be a little worried about is a club turn. Also SB can just donk lead clubs for third to half pot on turn and "see where he's at" pretty well. Even checking isn't that bad as if it's HU to the turn vs. LJ then any set is probably so far in front it can't be seen.

Saying that, and assuming everyone else folded ... he probably still has more combos. of draws than sets so it can't be _that_ bad to gamble it up for an extra 250 to defend your BTN straddle. If there's any meta game win for folding, then that might push me towards fold, but assuming the opposite and he can occasionally be going insane with top pair or something ... I don't mind trying to lose an extra 250.

To me the tell most likely represents a slowplay that saw another player likes their hand and changed their mind and decided to fastplay.

A hand like AA or AK wouldn't want to call the original bet and risk getting outdrawn by various single pair hands that could see a cheap turn and catch two pair.

On the other hand a hand like a set doesn't mind letting someone catch two pair to make a strong second best hand that will pay them off for a big pot. After you raise they might change their mind and decide to just get it in.

To me a draw is less likely if it is a good player. Sure a fish might say YOLO and ship it with a flush draw, but I would think a decent player, as the opponent was described, would hesitate to get all their chips in when they'll be a 2 to 1 dog to win the hand against another player who is representing a strong hand. I suppose the exception might be if you're a player that is known to raise/fold a lot. A good player might think a jam would be profitable with a draw if there is a good chance they pick up the pot uncontested.

There are a lot factors to consider here, but it's such an unusual one off spot that I wouldn't get too hung up on the exact solution. The important thing is learning to think on your feet in game. Anyway I'm going to be curious to see the reveal if villain showed down a hand.

KXcc is also a possibility. We're pretty much flipping with any variety of that hand. Obv, the more draws are in his range, the more we tilt toward call. And also now that I think about it K6s, K4s prob wouldn't be originally flat calling the $15, they'd c/r for value and "charge the draws" while setting up a turn shove.

In my room you cant call out of turn then raise. The 15 is also committed

Some of the saddest memories I’ve had involved flopping 2pair from a free play in the blind. It’s sad, because you know you would have never played that hand - and then you’re counterfeited.

That said, what else can you do but play them fast. You didn’t get that chance.

In hand reading, I think a ton of players do this with AK. That’s great, but this is when I get counterfeited. Sigh

I’m honestly not sure what I would do.
We block sets and I think we are ahead
The question is will we stay ahead when the board runs out?

In most rooms, the rule is the $15 call has to stand if the action in front doesn't change. So if hero folds or flat calls V can only call, not raise. I'm not sure if he's even allowed to fold if hero calls.

If hero raises, the action is changed, and V is typically allowed to re-raise or fold. They may say he has to put the $15 in if he wants to fold, but they can't say he has to call the $50.

If the rule in your room is that he can't re-raise, to prevent angling, I'd like that rule.

V could be angling here, but I'd think KK wouldn't try this.

This does have the smell of KK that was hoping to limp-3B pre. But when he doesn't get the chance I'd think KK would lead out on the flop at some frequency, rather than check the two-flush board.

If he's going for a check raise, he got his chance. Why call? His call only makes sense if he was hoping there would be a bet and multiple callers that he could squeeze, but when he thinks he's heads up he changes the plan and decides to slow play. Or he's just angling.

It's unlikely hero or LJ has KK. V might be putting hero on a draw that wants to get this heads up. Or maybe he thinks hero will over-fold 2P or a lower set here. It's a weird spot to take this line, because LJ could still re-raise if he just calls. If he was trapping with KK, why not flat call the $50 and see if LJ wants to pop it?

I dunno. This would be a somewhat strange way to play KK. Seems at least somewhat likely V just has KXcc or something in that vein, like a combo draw. If he's an OMC and has AA, I'll laugh my balls off.

FWIW I wouldn't think of this as an angle. Even if V knew H was still to act and intentionally called KK out of turn. At worst I'd put it in the same category as giving off fake tells.

Also think the rule would be bad, V already gets punished by the rules in a couple of ways by playing out of turn (Eg. forced to overcall).

Yeah there really isn't much he can hit on K64 after limping. I agree that he must have more combos of Kx, AA and draws than sets. There is prob some metagame to indicate folding, but the same amount to indicate calling.

Dunno dunno. Super close.

Yeah in hindsight it definitely feels more like a slowplay that switched to a fastplay once it learned that another played liked his hand.

Agreed about AA and AK.

Yeah in the moment it was a pretty tough decision. But I figured my blockers/unblockers were too good to fold, assuming that he didn't limp KK.

Yeah that sounds right to me.

Yeah those spots in the BB/straddle with random junk that hits and then loses are painful; we've all been there. Although I guess when you straddle you double your chances of that happening, so perhaps there's a lesson to be learned here.

If it's AK, of course I'm happy to get the money in.

So I eventually decided I couldn't let this one go, and called. Villain had K♣K♦.

Ironically enough, a six came on the turn, so I made a full house. If I had decided to call on the flop, I would have lost my stack anyway. The only way I can avoid going broke in this hand is if I don't straddle, or fold to the flop jam.

The longer I play poker the more inclined I am to quite simply see things for what they are. Some of the best players I have ever known have an amazing ability to see through the noise and read situations clearly and devoid of any BS. Villain called vs one player and not only raised but jammed vs two, facing a raise. Of course he just loves his hand and didn't want to scare off his customer the first time around! Not only that, but he was so overly keen to call and for the hand to play out, that he called out of turn. Then, facing probable clear strength, he 6x 3bet jams.

Sometimes you just have to see things for what they are.