1/2: AA in 3-way 4b pot, $900 deep
Hero $900 opens UTG to $18 with AA
MP reg $1.4k 3-bets to $48
CO $265 cold-calls
Hero 4-bets to $240
Both call
Flop ($720): K♣ 8♦ 8♠
Checks through
Turn ($720): J♥
Hero checks
MP bets $240
CO calls $240
Hero has $660 behind
I checked flop because I was afraid of KK and didn’t want to lose QQ/JJ. Turn was a horrendous card so I checked again. I was planning to call vs MP but when CO snap called, I was really worried about JJ.
Fold or call?
Do you have any reads on these players? I mean, what in the world is going on pre?
Not sure about flop. I probably bet it, although I'm fine with the check vs two players. I just sigh-fold now. Would be sick if they had AK, KJ or QQ type hands, but it's difficult to beat two players on this board.
4bet sizing seems huge but you got two calls so congrats. Open size is massive too.
I would bet the flop and shove the turn. As played, check/folding the turn would be ridiculous. Don’t do that.
What is the CO’s stack size? He only has $25 left post flop?
Ultimately it doesn’t matter, you can’t fold AA at less than 1 SPR in a 4bet pot.
$720 in the pot and $660 behind, I am looking to stack off on all but the worst of flops and live with the result. This is a dream scenario, we have a very good shot at 582.5bb of villain's money here.
Flop is so dry I don't think it matters whether we lead small or x/c.
Turn, I think we should lead now. I would go ~$250 and jam river.
I don't understand why CO with $265 has called a $240 bet preflop and then calls another $240. Does CO cover us or not? In the original scenario as stated, we can simply call or ship and move on with our lives since MP can have any reasonable hand when he leads out and CO only has a small peice of the pot. If CO covers us...well I guess I ship because I'm bad at poker LOL but I'm less happy about it. I think folding would be too weak but I don't like the action. Probably want some reads to decide further but I think folding is not good without something really solid to go with.
EDIT
I guess the problem with trying to find reasons to fold on anything other than dogcrap runouts is that we are going to bleed a lot of money if we build massive pots with toppest pair and then start folding just because our opponents could have us beat. What runout are we OK with? It's tough to play poker for stacks post flop if we fold because we see a J, Q or K on the flop or turn.
Like I have seen so much nonsense being flatted for 4bets. Apart from AK, we could see KQs here...could even have a player ( CO ) unable to let go of QQ or QTs. I really think it's bad to narrow our opponents down to exactly KK / JJ and try to fold. Different if we got here with a single raise and then the turn goes bet - raise to us.
Wait, what is CO's stack? Is he all in? Sorry, I assumed he was similar stack size -- didn't go back and look.
Of course you can.
Maybe not here, but if MP is tight/nit and has only KK/JJ here, you can. I did misread CO's stack size, though, so folding does seem a bit too tight w/o reads on MP.
I agree with the basic sentiment but MP called preflop and flop checked through, so it's hard to rule out AK from all but the nittiest of nits when he leads turn.
You have less than a psb otf. Bet the flop. As played, bet the turn. As played check/shove the turn. Folding turn to 1/3 pot bet and call is ridiculous. Someone could have KK/JJ. I understand why you didn't like the K on the flop. If you are beat, you are beat, but once you get this much in preflop, you need to go with AA.
I like betting $75 or something on the flop. I don't like checking the turn. But I'm never folding period here.
Why oh why did you check that flop?
Is it a typo or does MP have $25 behind?
Not sure why we check flop honestly. Would make more sense to just make it a 1 street game.
I'd just jam the flop or bet like 150ish - whatever looks weaker. Could he have KK? Yeh sure, but either way we're not getting away from it. Really though there's 3 combos of KK, 6 combos of AK - I would assume he plays AK the same way. As played the default is to just get it in - if you can soul read MP then do what you gotta do.
Both players can have AK without reads, this is a call.
If we can exclude AK or worse from MP somehow, it's a fold but we need a very strong read to do that with the action given.
If we can exclude AK from CO, I dunno LOL. Someone else can do the work on that.
Too much thinking. Weak/tight because it is a big pot. Just gii. You have aces with spr < 1.
Of course you can.
Maybe not here, but if MP is tight/nit and has only KK/JJ here, you can. I did misread CO's stack size, though, so folding does seem a bit too tight w/o reads on MP.
In general, you are supposed to go broke with top pair or better in a low SPR spot. There are definitely some spots where you can get away with folding (especially multi-way) but when the SPR is this low, I think it would be a pretty significant mistake to fold. Hero doesn't have to win very often to profitably stack off in this spot and there are only six combos that he is realistically losing to.
In this specific spot, I don't see how you can rule out AK, even against nittier players. So Hero is even beating value here. There are an even amount of combos of AK as KK/JJ and there are some other conceivable (albeit unlikely) hands in both players' ranges that AA is ahead of too (KQs, KJs, AQs, QQ, AJs). CO is very likely a fish here too, so I am really not concerned about him.
I thought CO was as deep as the other two, so his call was a little more concerning -- highly unlikely he has AK -- JJ or a random 8 wouldn't surprise me, but neither would a lot of hands. I would have bet the flop, which would make this much easier. I'm OK jamming (especially knowing CO had no choice, really), too, but some "read" or "vibe" made H think he was behind -- let's hope it was wrong.
Grunch:
PRE - the 4B size of almost 5x from OOP seems fine when there's a cold caller. If everyone is deep, I probably would have just made it $250, but that's nitpicking.
If the CO only starts with $265, I might consider raising to an amount that would allow the betting to be re-opened if CO jams. So, $130. I might also just make it $265 to put him all in.
FLOP - it's less than 1 SPR. Just jam. If someone's got KK, nice hand, good game. Much more likely they have AK and can't let it go, or some PP happy to take a free card in hopes of boating up.
TURN - Not sure what to do when we get here this way. We have the best 2P, and I doubt anyone has KK, but JJ is a possibility.
A jam is interesting. We could have been sand-bagging with KK. We might make JJ fold. I think I could fold JJ here, if you check-jammed.
I think I like a jam better than calling or folding.
Do you have any reads on these players I mean, what in the world is going on pre
Not sure about flop. I probably bet it, although I'm fine with the check vs two players. I just sigh-fold now. Would be sick if they had AK, KJ or QQ type hands, but it's difficult to beat two players on this board.
This is a no brainer call/jam. Why OP even decided to post this is beyond me. Hero 4b to $240 - and both players call leaving a pot sized bet behind. You want to get all the money in on any flop. The fact he checked, and someone bet for him is fantastic.
Worrying about JJ or KK is ridiculous. What about AK - or a tilted player who just wants to gamble with a random pocket pair like 66. It's unlikely they call the turn - but what if they both have AK or some other hand.
Lol I just saw this - and it really is insane - but people think like this. Sure he loses sometimes - but my goodness...... You only have to right 35%~ of the time to make a jam profitable.
No idea why you just didn't bet the flop yourself - but if you are worried about just KK than just get stacked and move on. You committed yourself pre and are worried about 1 particular hand. You should have more 4b in your range than just AA.
As I stated, I would have bet the flop and then this is a no-brainer. Also thought CO was deeper, which makes a flat more concerning. By all means, jam.
Remember, though, OP didn't check the flop because he wanted to induce -- he checked the flop because he thought main V had KK. Bad play on his part, but here we are -- he knows his V better than we do. I've folded AA to a bet before in a similar situation, but I knew my V very well -- he was never betting w/o a set.
H's hand is pretty face-up, too. I wouldn't bet AK on the turn expecting H to fold AA (or AK). Would you?
Yikes bet flop please. Bet small flop, jam
Then. Ez game.
You into into kk, who cares
