Road from NL10 to NL50
Hi everyone,
I am starting this thread to document my endeavor from NL10 to NL50.
The purpose of this thread is to keep m
Day 8:
Began reading The Mental Game of Poker and doing that before my play. Calms me a lot.
Despite generally playing well, still losing some bigger pots to be barely up.
Have to, Have to stop 4 betting light with 0 playability hand just because of timing tells. Timings tells were right : BB tank before 3betting with a very marginal mixing hand, 88. But that doesn't mean a hand like K7o can get the job done. K7s, on the other hand, is even solver approved! And would make my life a lot easier in finding the turn barrells. And I have 0 (literally 0) 4bp knowledge, so needs to study that quite a bit.
I dont really hate this call. I think flop raise may be very strong, turn obviously not going everywhere yet, but river shove I will fold most of the time. But the Q pairing leaves his only combo that I dont beat KQ and Q9. I think he can go crazy with weird combos because he has ice cube, obviously tilted (supported by xr Q5 OTF), and he is a fish so he might shove with K9 and other Kx (maybe not).
BR: 729 (Idk how I got to 729 because H2N says otherwise, but whatever(
Day 9:
Had my best day in weeks! To be fair, sun running, but no tilt that made me lose all Ive gained.
Started to read The Mental Game of Poker for 15 minutes prior to my session, which I found super helpful for my mental game.
Also just had a session with a poker coach who taught me so much and I feel like having immediate effects.
I hope I can keep it up
BR: 771
Best of luck, followng.
Day 10:
Breakeven day, up 1 BI in EV, but the majority comes from preflop AA vs AK and AA vs KK, didn't do anything spectacular by myself. Was down 2 buyins, glad that I was able to turn it around. I guess we made $2 in rakeback.
What I have discovered these two days is that I am pretty bad at regular tables. The constant weird behaviors of fish just throw me off. I don't know what to do with donks, I am afraid of running bluffs, I can't steal as often as I could in rnc because they are people that just open alot and I don't know how to exploit them.
Today I tried 3 rnc, and didn't feel overwhelmed.
rnc vs reg post session:
So yea I might will try 3 rnc again tmr, and hope that I don't get lost
BR: 771
I have done this before, a few times now actually. Totally doable, two things though, first why GG? The high rake means your goal is to break even or slightly losing and then make your money through rake back and bonuses, I prefer sites with lower rake as i just don't enjoy leader board grinding, it's not as fun and tougher mentally to see a losing graph, plus you can still get rake back on other sites. Second if the goal is to move up I'd advocate for being more aggressive with the BRM, everyone has a different risk tolerance but if you feel you are capable of beating 50nl and are confident in your abilities then extra time spent at 10nl is just a waste. My approach when moving up was to allocate say a certain number of buy ins for taking a shot, if it goes well great you're now grinding your new stake, if you fall bellow your allocated shot take then move down. Say with 600 i would already be playing 25nl, I would allocate 8 buy ins to take a shot and if I fall to 400 then that's enough to grind back up at 10nl and try again. The last time I did this it was my third or 4th attempt that i broke through 25nl.
I may be wrong in my approach, this is just how i think about it.
Good luck in your journey. God speed!
Thanks so much for the support! I also think like a more aggresive approach is good for player development, but I just dont have enough evidence that I can confidently say that I beat NL10. I mean, at least post rake, after 110K hands i am losing at -2.2 - -2.5 bb/100. I want to find enough evidence that I can beat NL10 before moving up. For example today I got totally destroyed. Haha
On GG, that may actually be a positive indicator.
Check out this video. He mainly grinds 1/2 Rush & Cash on GG. Over a 1 million hand sample, he was down about $23k, which depending on exact stakes works out to roughly -1.5 bb/100 (give or take). Despite that, he still made around $80k in profit.
That’s essentially how the GG ecosystem works. The rake is extremely high and very few players are meaningfully positive over large samples purely from gameplay. Most of the profit comes from leaderboard grinding, promotions, and bonuses rather than raw winrate.
Given that context, after 100k hands I don’t think being at around -2.5 bb/100 is particularly bad for GG at all. Bear in Mind his results are at 20x your current stake so the effects of rake are going to be hitting you much harder at the micros!
It's worth watching the video, it’s useful for setting realistic expectations when grinding on GG.
https://youtu.be/XvnF7SOiNJk?si=gdbksTrwtHyK-AoY
Day 11:
I actually wrote so much but I wasn't logged in so it wasn't saved.
Basically, the idea is that I am experiencing what the book calls entitlement tilt. I perform bad when I lose against recs + the idea of losing to recs make me unable to make good decisions. I also over-level myself and disregard the basic principles that at NL10, big bet from rec = strength.
Against rec, I am unable to fold this, which is such an easy fold against any reg
Against rec, I tilted shoved. I knew villian had no Kx, but I got angry at the raise that makes 0 sense, and shoved. Got snapped. I essentially fell into the same illogicality as villian. If I had Kx, why would I shove? I should've given up or floated.
I should've paid attention to weird b85. I don't hate my line, and villians river bet just has so few value combos. Kind of run bad that I ran into the only straight combo. In hindsight, raise fold is probably better. Preflop was explloting villians high ATS and low 3bet. Had there not been a cold caller on BB, it wouldve went through most likely.
I need to stop over-leveling myself. Villian snap checks flop, and delay big bet turn. Usually in NL10 this is bullshit. I was ready to give up until I saw the river b100. I knew he had no Jx, because no Jx would snap check flop. I over-leveled myself into calling KQ (a terrible bluff catcher in theory also, because villians bluff range probably have many Kx and Qx. I also lose to random Ax). Yea no ****, 77 makes so much sense to take this line.
Yea probe big and river pot doesn't make any sense except for maybe 99. But people do crazy **** and they probe big with T8. I just need to respect big bets from rec, as simple as that!
Villian's flop snap xr screams draw. I knew it was a draw. Why did I pay him off river? These 10 bbs matter a lot in the long run.
I know I am able to make disciplinary folds. Villian is extremely nitty (20 vpip, 5 3bet), and he bets 3 streets multiway. I thought I would be the greatest nit in the world if I didn't raise river. I probably shoulve just called knowing he has 0 bluff and would probably not call a shove. As played, I think folding is almost right 100% of the time facing a river 3bet.
WWSF is 54, and won when show down is 64. I am crushing the small pots but just losing the bigger pots, mostly due to the unwillingness to lose to fish/ over-leveling myself when seeing weird stuff. I need to remind myself to remember the basic principle that at my level, recs especially, big bets = strength. As simple as that, and I think I can be a winning player. I know my stuff, I know the exploits. There's no way im not beating this
BR: 729
On GG, that may actually be a positive indicator.Check out this video. He mainly grinds 1/2 Rush & Cash on GG. Over a 1 million hand sample, he was down about $23k, which depending on exact stakes works out to roughly -1.5 bb/100 (give or take). Despite that, he still made around $80k in profit.That's essentially how the GG ecosystem works. The rake is extremely high and very f
I think GG's microstake is actually pretty friendly:
. Given this is true
I dont know about grinding leaderboard. Maybe I should try for one day hahahah to see how it feels. Maybe it will completely ruin my entire bankroll lol
I think GG's microstake is actually pretty friendly:
. Given this is trueI dont know about grinding leaderboard. Maybe I should try for one day hahahah to see how it feels. Maybe it will completely ruin my entire bankroll lol
If you scroll down that link, there are many comments complaining that rake displayed for GGpoker is wrong.
yeah it is very misleading, the "rake" is MUCH higher than 4.5%, in some cases you're paying more than 10% rake on GG, it makes the games almost unbeatable, you're forced to be a rake back grinder on there. If you're okay grinding leader boards for rake back and bonuses then perhaps it's a viable option. But i wouldn't expect to have a winning graph on win rate alone, even a very good player will at best be break even.
yeah it is very misleading, the "rake" is MUCH higher than 4.5%, in some cases you're paying more than 10% rake on GG, it makes the games almost unbeatable, you're forced to be a rake back grinder on there. If you're okay grinding leader boards for rake back and bonuses then perhaps it's a viable option. But i wouldn't expect to have a winning graph on win rate alone, even a ve
From my own stats from Hand2Note, it says that the rake is about 7.3bb/100, which corresponds with what the website says (7.2bb/100). I will ask my friends that play on other sites what their rake is like, but I think this should be beatable. I would love to know if there are other sites with lower rake, I just can't find any information online except for the link that I attached, which claims that GG has one of the lowest rakes.
WWSF means the % of hands that you win once you see the flop. The higher the stat is means that the more aggresive you are post flop. It does usually mean lower WSD (won at showdown), because being more aggressive means that you need to bluff more and bluff catch more, resulting in losing at many showdowns.
Winning players usually have at least %49+ in WWSF. Me personally is aiming for 52% WWSF.
Day 12:
Tried to grind leaderboard for a day to see what it's like. Couldnt' finish till the end as I got tilted over some huge 4bp losses.
Was sun running the entire day: set over set to my favor, preflop aces vs kings so many times, flush that hits, boats vs flush.
Was up 10BI in the peak, and the session in the night was basically all waste.
AA 4bp on KQ393 board. Could've definitely folded river b75 probe. It's almost an entire buyin! Villian showed JTs. -113bb
KK 4bp on T953Q board, OOP, cbet flop, check turn, villian probe b50, cant fold yet, river shove. Fold, -70bb
UGHHH so sad could've had my first 10BI winning day
Also couldn't manage to grind leaderboard for a decent prize. It is much harder than I imagine. Past 12, I began to lose my focus. Next time I try I gotta start doing it in the morning. I have like 18000 points which is like the worst. Having a couple more thousands give you like 2-3 BIs, but now I would prolly just get 0.7 0.8 BIs.
This week so far:
I am amazed by how balanced I am lucky vs unlucky. Earlier in the week I was down by 4BI, and today it's now even.
Absolutely horrendous redline btw. Don't know what's going on. WWSF 49% today with W%SD 64. Definitely not the stats that I am looking for. I am too afraid to pull the third trigger always.
BR: 793
Feel so tilted even though today I am up 6BI. Don't know. Feel like I really wanted the peak at 10BI. I probably lost 2BI due to tilt. AA hand river was foldable, I also called a river raise to like 30bb (actually never seen a river raise bluff so far in like 110k hands if I remember correctly), and deuces 4b shoved 60bb pre cause I thought he 3bet me a little bit slow hahah. So that was 2Bi preventable. Other 2Bi that I lost were pretty much unpreventable. I have like AA or AK top pair, and I would bet in a big pot until villian decides to tell me he has the nut OTT or OTR. No bluff I am certain.
Also EV at almost breakeven just makes me tilt. At the peak ev was up $50, which looks pretty good. At the end EV breaking even is so damn ugly.
Tomorrow I will work on finding the third barrell more often and see if I can get my redline to be a little less steep.
Also poker is such a game of discipline at the lowest level. There are spots where you know the villian have no bluff. I just need the discipline to always make the fold. I was making folds here and there today. I think they are good folds. It's just at the end I collapsed because I kept making those folds. Resulting in losing 2BIs.
DISCIPLINE DISCIPLINE DISCIPLINE
btw this hand is pretty interesting
QT might shove for value, I am not sure. Preflop was 250bb, so villian should have all the KJ and maybe AJ. I am not sure if AJ purely limpcalls. This might be a bad fold. I really dont know
Seen as you're posting hands I hope you're open to criticism! Haha. Feel free to give your thoughts on any hands or plays I post!
I have noticed in your posts a few times you make a statement like "you feel someone" may be this or that based on something you've seen, in the 22 case you felt the slow 3 bet indicated weakness.
In my opinion this is flawed thinking. I think it's okay at times to expend a range in some way if you have strong evidence that someone is deviating in a way that would allow you to expand it. I don't think a possible timing tell is strong enough evidence to do so, not that that timing tells aren't a thing, but I would want more evidence. Player notes, a large sample of hud stats, I also think expanding a 4 bet Jam range to include 22 is obviously far too wide. If you're going to expand a range it should be done naturally, first move hands that are mixes to pure, and expand around those hands if it's appropriate. I don't know the positions here but I'd argue that 22 may have been a fold pre, even on the BU 22 is a hand you can consider folding pure, it has bad reverse blockers and v a 60bb stack your implied odds are even further reduced, as stacks get deeper these low pocket pairs perform better but 22 at 100bb ef and below is a hand you can just consider not playing at all at the micros and low stakes especially v short stacks.
Also you mention that in a big pot you continue to bet TPTK or strong hands like over pairs until your opponent tells you that that have a stronger hand. I don't like this thought process, instead you should be thinking in terms or your range vs their range and how those ranges are interacting with the texture. Strong hands don't always get to bet, there's a lot to consider when deciding whether to bet or not and for what sizing. So when you say getting stacked was unavoidable I would argue that although that may be true at times, perhaps go back and review those hands because they may be things you're missing.
I think it's important to have a solid base and solid strategy and thought process and then build on top of that.
Hopefully you don't think I'm being overly critical but I think it's important to be able to analyse your play and consider if it’s really the best you can do, what can you improve. Some changes are very simple like improving your pre flop strategy, others take more work like working on c betting strategies.
Seen as you're posting hands I hope you're open to criticism! Haha. Feel free to give your thoughts on any hands or plays I post! I have noticed in your posts a few times you make a statement like "you feel someone" may be this or that based on something you've seen, in the 22 case you felt the slow 3 bet indicated weakness. In my opinion this is flawed thinking. I think it's o
No of course! I really appreciate criticism and your comment! That's the point of the thread I would love yall to flame me. And I also recognize that you are trying to be as respectful as possible 😀, which is like the dream comment for me.
Yea about timing tells, I've watched this course from Saulo Costa about timing tells and basically its is *sort of* supported by evidence that preflop timing tell is a thing. He does many out of line 3bet/ 4bet/ 5bet shove if villian shows weak timing, and according to him is doing great. When I am executing it, however, the 3bet part works great. 4bet works sometimes depending on villian. 5bet is almost always bad. In this case I shove against a 70bb short stack, 21 vpip 10 3bet guy, who probably has way too strong of a 3bet range from the BB given he is short stacked. Honestly, was up so much at that point I felt too confident in everything. So was definitely, defintely a punt.
In terms of TPTK/overpairs, I think TPTK and overpair is supposed to bet most of the time, and let me just put couple hands that I was referring to, combining in perhaps lost of 1 to 2 BIs or so.
I think these hands I definitely want to bet, and I think im doing a good job avoiding losing my entire stack. I am whining though because I am tilted, so this is bad.
Again man thanks for the comment, I looked through some of your threads as well as seems like you are much of a crusher than what I could ever imagine to be 😀
No of course! I really appreciate criticism and your comment! That's the point of the thread I would love yall to flame me. And I also recognize that you are trying to be as respectful as possible 😀, which is like the dream comment for me. Yea about timing tells, I've watched this course from Saulo Costa about timing tells and basically its is *sort of* supported by evidence t
Oh for the last hand, sizing is a mistake. On those low boards with flush draw there's no big sizing used. Without a flush draw I can go big bet, but with a flush draw I shouldn't use this sizing. Turn AA with a spade mostly bet but for b50 also. So yea I couldve lost more. I didn't know this and im glad that i learned this now
And second hand maybe I should just xf OTT, or use a smaller sizing. Because he flat and cold call 3bet, so just PPs that want to rip a set. when he calls OTF he is actually already insanely strong for someone 16 vpip. Folding river is definitely correct imo
I can just use vpn to go on whatever website I think
Saul is an amazing player, but i think there's danger in trying to replicate what has taken him years to master. Timing tells 100% exist and I use them in my own game, my point was they, in my opinion, shouldn't be a license to go crazy and start picking random hands to 4 bet bluff or 5 bet jam with.
This is only my opinion, but i think instead a structured approach works better. I like to have a very clear image of what my range looks like from each position, i know exactly how i will react v each positions action and either stick to the baseline or deviate one way or the other based on the players stats, notes or population tendencies. i think trying to put too much emphasis on timing tells can get you off track building a solid base to work from when that's all you need to beat the micros. 90%+ of the player pool are absolutely terrible and have no clue what they're doing, there's enough edge to be gained playing a solid strategy that makes the normal deviations without having to play the timing tell guessing game. Perhaps if you ever reach mid to high stakes and people are looking for extra edge then there's a way to incorporate such things into your game a little more, but at the micros it seems a little crazy to me to think that way. Also if you are going to deviate pick hands that are natural expansions so it's not obvious what you are doing, people take notes, i am constantly taking notes and tagging players, if i see someone 4 bet rip 22 or some weird hand, regardless of whether I'm involved they'll get a note and I'll use that information for later, that's how you can go from trying to exploit to being the one getting exploited, maybe not now but later down the line. If however you say pick a hand that is a mix and choose to 4 bet it pure vs someone you think is being 3 bet heavy then you've disguised your exploit, anyone watching will know it's a 4 bet occasionally and won't know you've adjusted. This is the difference between a hard and soft exploit. i use both regularly but you need to be very careful doing so. the goal is to keep exploiting people over and over without them realising, if you start diving into random hands then you're in hard exploit territory and you're exposing yourself to be counter exploited later, you've also given the game away if you get caught.
For the other hands, if I may offer some critique! haha. you folded the first three I read, so we never actually got to see villain’s holdings. You’re assuming these were good folds, but at the micros it’s entirely possible they’re jamming worse for value or even bluffing. People do some fairly non standard things at these stakes.
My main critique, though, is more about the thought process than the specific decisions. Not to be rude, but framing it as TPTK is supposed to bet most of the time is fairly level one thinking. I think it’s much more productive to start from board texture, what villain’s range looks like, and how that range interacts with the board. From there, consider what your range and your perceived range looks like, and whether betting actually makes sense, and if so for what sizing. There are plenty of spots where checking an over pair, top pair, or even a set is optimal at some frequency, not just for pot control, but to protect your checking range and to allow you to check raise. In these 3 and 4 bet pots where ranges are narrower and the spr is low it's really important to have a solid strategy. i guess i just don't like thinking it was meant to be, was it? there's always something to learn.
One final critique haha. i really wouldn't put a lot of weight on hud stats, not without a massive sample! especially on GGs Hud. Things like 3 bet stats take a long time to build an accurate picture, the smaller the sample the greater the noise, you need a very large sample to get an accurate reading. You aslo don't know if someone is playing a 3 bet or fold strategy or incorporating more flats, on GG you also don't get to see the 3 bet stats by position, you only get the total figure, so without a massive sample i think it's a huge mistake to make big deviations based on hud stats. Things like 3 bet and 4 bet stats take thousands of hands before you start to get anything close to useable.
These are only my thoughts, feel free to disagree. hopefully even if you don't agree with all of it, some of it was hopefully constructive.
