1/3 ~ QQ vs 3bet

oof interesting one. You can make an argument for all 3. We have two uncapped folks here. I think I'm calling in position here.

I would likely flat IP. Feels like we can almost set mine getting 12:1 effective plus 10:1 effective, assuming V1 doesn't 4bet.

If v1 4bets and no-one calls, we can GII at this stack depth. Pot would have 150 + 250 with 200 for us to call means we need 33%. We have 40% with QQ vs. AK+QQ+.

My next preferred option is to 4bet but the sizing is difficult, I would probably go ~$125 to leave room against the deep stacks. $250 to scoop up the shortie leaves us no room against the deep stacks and QQ is typically not looking good at 200bb effective.

Last option is to quietly fold and never speak of this.

So for me flat > 4bet > fold but I could be talked into any of these really.

Didn’t catch Hero stack size. Maybe you meant you had them all covered - but unless very short, I like the call in position.

Passive opener
3 better
Cold caller OMC
A lot of strength being represented by all three. Actually not sure what to do if the opener shoves after you call.

A and/or K on the flop and it’s trouble or we could be up against a couple of AKs and be favored. We need to use our position to gather info on the flop and help us proceed from there.

Yea we cover them all

The good thing about flatting here is if it doesn't get 4 bet then we probably have the best hand on any flop without an Ace or a King.

If an Ace or King come on the flop and any one of them bet, I think we can safely fold to any of them betting, and we probably can bet in position on flops like 842 if folded to us.

The only tricky flops are gonna be things like JT4.

Ugh. Call or fold. Raising just commits you.

Ok say we do call
BB(young asian guy) jams for like 200
V1 folds
V2 jams fairly quickly
V3 snap jams
Hero?

Fold -- you got the info you needed 😉

Fold to the 50 imo

Trivial fold, LOL. Have KK so we can have a discussion.

EDIT

Actually I just fold KK here.

Fold fold fold.

Fold fold fold fold.

Weird spot, imo. Kinda doubt the OMC is flatting AA/KK in this spot but it's not unheard of? Any reads on 3bettor? Much shorter with all this dead money and any hint of a wild read on 3bettor it would be a slam dunk jam for me. But at these stack depths I don't think we can risk that. We're getting upwards of 12+:1 in IO, which ain't great, but we're also in position and not necessarily setmining. Think I sigh flat there.

ETA: Wow to all the next action. I'm folding fairly confidently and then obviously shooting myself in the face afterwards when all three table AK.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I think I might fold the first time, although wouldn't hate a 4bet and I reckon it's close theoretically.

Very straightforward fold second time.

You made a good decision. Good on you.

Aside from the specifics of 4B size vs stack size and reads, my working heuristic at low stakes is that the player pool has evolved to the point that many players are often opening wide, and many are 3B'ing too wide, and they don't have enough of a 3B-fold range, but generally they're 4B'ing super-tight.

If we start filtering this heuristic through our reads, this would be my thought process pre:

1. V1 is a passive player who just opened to 5BB from UTG off a $250 stack. Assuming he has a limping range, this should be a strong hand. Even if he doesn't have a limping range, this should still be a strong hand.

2. V2 is a middle aged Indian guy. My observation of these types is they tend to be uncreative and loose-passive with most of their range, but they look to shovel it in when they're holding something strong. This guy would probably flat call with 80%-90% of his continuing range. Even if he just sat down and knows nothing about V1, his 3B is likely to be a strong hand. This is generally going to be JJ+ / AK, and maybe not every combo of AK.

3. V3 is an OMC and just cold-called a 3B. I'm sure there's some frequency of him showing up with 99-QQ / AK / AQs / AXs, but OMC's will usually fold 99/TT, AQ and AXs to a raise and a 3B, so his range is just JJ+/AK, and sometimes just QQ+. Very often he's trapping with a monster, and doesn't want to 4B because he knows his image and knows everyone will insta-muck if he does. Seeing him turn over AA/KK will not shock me.

Now consider that whether we cold-call or 4B, the betting is still open, and V1 may decide to jam for $250 when action gets back to him. Maybe V2 jams for $500. Maybe one or the other just has AK and is going with it. Do we want to pay $250-$500 to find out? If V3 jams, it's just an insta-fold and we torched whatever we put into the pot.

I'd have a hard time letting go of KK for $50, but if my spider-sense is tingling, I might, and this would be the spot. It sucks to fold QQ, but it's a pretty easy decision facing this action, from these V's.

I think in general you should be pretty cautious about cold calling 3 bets, but like with lots of general poker heuristics there are alway exceptions.

In this case:
i) We have position. Would be a different question if you were calling from SB
ii) You have some manoevrability at this stack depth
iii) None of the other options look great, though I agree fold is better than 4B, which is a big punt here.

My quotes out of order, but this is why I called the 3bet and didn’t raise - fold fold fold
It becomes pretty clear now

The reason I picked the call option is that folding seemed too weak. I’m expecting to be beat nearly every time a lot of people are involved with a lot of money going in. So, maybe I should reevaluate a fold in this spot. I guess it’s like set-mining against a crowd even with a hand like this. Nice play

We have nothing invested and facing some incredibly strong ranges. I just fold the first time. If we call 50 or 4b it’s all going to go in frequently, which isn’t terrible but I’m not sure that’s profitable lacking reads.

A little curious why no one has attempted some maths or ranges yet

Here's how I range everybody:
UTG TT+, AQ+
LJ JJ+, AK
HJ JJ+, AKs; may or may not include JJ/KK for different reasons

Accounting for QQ blockers, each player has KK+ the following %s
UTG 25%
LJ 41%
HJ 35% if doesn't flat KK, 52% if does

I suck at math, but my calculator says you run into KK+ 48% of the time, if HJ doesn't flat KK and 54% if he does. Obviously, 4-betting is no good if we're running into KK+ ~1/2 the time. Calling isn't good either because if HJ ever 4-bets incorrectly with AK or JJ, the action is reopened and LJ/HJ will be re-shoving the vast majority of the time, and we are forced to fold, effectively lighting $50 on fire.

Normally action is only reopened if utg ships it in. Utg probably shoving only QQ+/AK+

Ya, but if his range is tight as I think it is, QQ+, AK still makes up the majority of his range. Especially when you hold two queens.