Clicky fish reopens the action

v1 - what does preflop min-click mean? Is this a pot-sweetener, AA or random behaviour with any hand he wants to play? This is critical to the question, if his line is nutted, I make a move with whatever I thinks ahead of his nuts. Otherwise flat now. If his line is FOS, I probably jam 99/AQ? We're going to get called by one or more of these guys so we need raw equity.

The 77 is a pretty clear call to set mine, or occasionally you can win unimproved on a favorable board when no one bets aggressively.

As for making a move, I suppose if you think everyone is likely to fold you could make it something like $120 with something like a weak ace. You ideally want blockers to the strongest hands.

In general I would expect to get called or jammed on a lot though, so I would just be raising with a relatively strong range that is looking to stack off. As werebeer said that's going to depend on what the raise means, and also what ranges you put the other players on. Nothing in the HHs really tells us much about their preflop ranges.

Also: Your opponents have to be really unaware for you to successfully make a move and take it down with something like a weak ace. It's just not repping much when you raise. All your strong hands should pretty much be raising the first time around, not calling in the small blind then reraising after the min click.

Flat call with 77. You want to see it multiway. Not sure I am making a move with any hand I came in as the 2nd flat caller in the SB with. You also can't represent anything, because it makes no sense that you would flat with a big hand initially. You could maybe flat with a big hand in ep if 3!s were likely, which they usually are not at 1/3.

I just shrug and jam and hope to flip with clicky with some dead money. Probably get 3 folds a lot.

Ha, this is probably the cuspy hand for me. Anything less and I'm just happily setmining. Anything much more and I'm probably going for it. Flip a coin?

GcluelessNLnoobG

I can understand set value call the first time, even in SB, given V2 description. Probably just sigh call the min. raise, I would lean towards this being nutted and a bad size vs. merged for a bad size but it's impossible to say.

Also would assume that even if V1 has KQ or whatever that he isn't folding much if you shove.

If we wanted to be balanced/GTO then I think we are supposed to use the hands we thought about 3betting the first time but instead just overcalled, which now become better when V2 just calls the min click ... so around AJs/99 at a guess.

(TL;DR - go home, Banana. You're drunk.)

Grunch:

Think we should just 3B in the SB with 77. Make it $75 or even $90 to go. Nothing wrong with taking it down pre. Also nothing wrong with having an uncapped range going to the flop. Alternatively, just double-flat to set-mine. I don't like doing it, but it's fine here.

As played - what move? Please don't tell us you're thinking about back-raising out of the SB because BB clicked it and the other two called.

Yes, they're capped. He isn't. Just because he clicked it with AQo in the previous hand doesn't mean he's not clicking it with every hand in his 3B'ing range. He's in the BB. He could have just flat called, closing the action. He 3B from OOP, into the PFR and two other opponents. He probably isn't folding very many hands if you 4B here.

To answer your question - I actually have made this move, back-raising out of the blinds, over a limp-3B, but it was a very unique situation in an insanely wild game. The limp-3B'er had JJ. I had AQo. I got lucky when the flop came AA6 and my hand held.

As a counter-example. I also made this move with 77, back-raising out of the blinds over a back-raiser, and got stacks in vs KK (oops!). I did not win that hand.

Last example - in a recent session, I over-limped from UTG1 with AQo, then back-jammed over a raise from an aggro V in LP and two flat calls from BB and UTG. They all folded and I took it down.

This move just isn't a thing in the blinds. There's zero credibility that you actually have a real hand when you just flat call in the SB and then put in a back-raise. I've never seen anyone do it with a hand that was actually ahead when they got called (I was behind both times I did it).

The last time I back jammed into a minclick3b was when I had 99, villain had AA wtf???

Were you in the blinds?

Limp-3B'ing from EP is credible, even if you're not an OMC. Flat calling an EP open next to act, and then putting in a back-raise over a squeeze is credible.

Over-calling and then back-raising out of the SB just isn't credible. Maybe we can get a hand as good as KQ or AJ to fold, but I don't think many players are going to fold TT+/AQ. If we're shallow, I don't know that 88-99 or AJs are folding.

Yea I was in sb, guy was in bb min3betting, the initial pfr and other guy called so i figured they were all capped.

I learned this the hard way min3betting can still have alot of strong ranges.
Fish is a fish for a reason.

Yeah, if you flatted with 99 or something similar, it is probably a shove. Flatting again with 77 is profitable, but shoving is not. 77 against 88 is not a flip. The miniraise could be inducing. The other players in a 1/3 game could be passive and have 99+/AQ+ and snap you off.

"Here's a list of Villains who'll pay me off when I hit an obvious hand."

"Should I bloat up a pot preflop with a middling pocket pair?"

These two questions do not compute. Flop a 7 and then stack the bastards.

I think if there was a "move" to make, it would've been 3-betting the first time, but not sure if 77 is the hand to do that with. Now just call.

Overall, whether we are that credible or not is almost irrelevant.

What's more relevant is whether anyone is flatting in this huge dead money case with some real premium pairs (such as TT+) which are admittedly unlikely to fold. Yup, we're in a terrible spot versus 88/99... but those hands are going to have an extremely hard time continuing. Really lineup dependent, imo. In a daytime OMC filled lineup, prolly too many of these passively played hands to pull this move. Against the lineup OP is describing, not so much.

Against overs we're slightly ahead with hugenormous dead money. A big percentage of these hands will also not be able to continue, which means we're printing.

Obviously re-flatting is +EV with the great immediate odds and IO. The question is whether doing something else is even more EV.

Gcuspy,imo,butI'mtheforumaggrotard,ldoG

If I think I have any fold equity at all then I'd rather do this with a much more polar hand than 77. A hand like A5s will get better Aces to fold as well as the middle pairs (if they fold). I'd rather do it with a hand which is crushed by the hands we know will fold and flipping with the one which might, rather than the other way round.

Are you ever calling from SB with a huge pair facing this action? And are these the sort of players who would realise?

Call-call feels horrible but personally I'm not flatting from SB with any sort of huge hand, so I'm not sure what I can represent. Against these opponents, just make your set as cheaply as possible and take the lot.

Plus, these guys won't fold.

I still advocate for calling and taking the profitable set-mining opportunity.

The click back range and the stack depth are also relevant. $200 deep a jam could be more profitable than flatting. Here you would effectively have to jam $400 to pick up $105.

The reason I say that you would have to jam is because if you make it $120 or something and then get jammed on you're priced in to call. If you make it $90 it's never getting through. So you effectively have to jam.

If you jam and get called every time you would need around 45% equity.

Against 99+, AJs+, AQo+ you have 37%. That seems like a reasonable guess for the raiser's range. I wouldn't expect anything in that range to fold to a jam in the clicker's spot, but you never know.

I don't really see anything in the OP that would lead us to think this guy is clicking back with anything worse than AJs. We've seen the raiser make this click back move with AQo. It's not like we've seen him make it with JTo or anything really bad that we would expect to fold to a jam. I don't see any reason to think we have much fold equity when we're not representing much.

If he was clicking back with garbage, sure it would be a profitable jam. I don't see the flatters having much very often, that is unless they know the OP tends to go bananas back raising.

I still don't see anything in the OP to make me think we have much fold equity against the raiser's range though. Admittedly it's a read based spot and could be a profitable jam if you get folds often enough, but I don't see it getting through much.

Just call and basically set mine. No reason to bloat this pot, especially from OOP.

Yeah, I have zero issues basing a flat versus a jam based on our stack size (i.e. risk versus reward). At $400, I guess leaning to the more aggro route at 99 or TT?

GcluelessNLnoobG

I just noticed the first post doesn't give the positions for the initial opener and caller, unless I'm missing it somewhere.

My thinking is generally if I put them on wide enough ranges that I would want to back jam (with whatever), I would likely be 3-betting those hands myself out of the SB.

I guess in theory TT would be fine to back jam, but I don't think I ever flat with it to begin with out of the SB, facing a raise and a call.

Exactly this. Maybe there's a case for flatting AA once in a rare while if you're sure the BB is squeezing very wide. Otherwise why on earth would you overcall a biggish pair?

There are reasons in a 1/3 game where the opener could be tight and people are 3!ing tight and could have flat called with JJ/AK.

In any case, I could definitely have flatted OOP with 99/AJs/KQs and it isn't an automatic shove after the minclick. The minclicker could be inducing with AA, etc. and again some 1/3 players could have premium hands they will snap you off with. I wouldn't assume everyone is capped. They could be really passive.

hahaha I laughed at this yeaaaah yeah ...

Result:

More specifically I was asking whats the worst hand people rip here? TT+ AK only?