[MID] 5/10, Nut flush on paired board

Wait a sec.
Sb call bb fold then bb 430$ on the river? ??

Not sure what you both are trying to rep.
V range should be capped. So is yours.
River makes no sense to be honest. Say he's repping air but this sizing begs you to call unless he puts you on bluff(missed draws).
There are like no sets, no boats in his range right.
So we should click it back or go for bigger sizings 3bets?

But then the question becomes what happens if he goes crazy and jam on top, I guess we call it off?

I think the final answer in terms of ranging opponent, villain is capped at flush at best.
We can even jam in terms of sizing for max value. But it'd be sick if he folds a flush and say he's beat so he lays it down.
I guess something smaller to like 1200 would be best and gets paid by all his flushes.

Why did you check the flop?

Click back to 645 for the lolz

Are you serious? Really bad.

we can't ever fold the nut flush here, no.

I mean, no hands really make much sense here - with the A, K and 10s all gone, what spades does he really have QJss, or Q9ss, J9ss? You'd hope a decent player is 3 bet or folding most of these pre too? Does he really call pre with 98, 87, 76ss etc?

We're beat by 88 and 33 as well as K10 that chose not to check raise turn. Surely he doesn't have K3 and K8 hands?

IDK, his hand doesn't make much sense. But it's 230 to win an additional 680

Yeah, call. He shouldn't be slow playing a set or top two pair with the 2-flush out there. He should also raise larger on the river, as you almost potted it, and probably have a flush or trips for value.

I would bet somewhat smaller on the river with a flush on a paired board.

its much closer to a 3b than a fold lol

you got a ten and its pretty hard for u to be beat from a hand reading perspective. his sizing also dont really look like a full house

turn looks too big river looks too small to me

Not betting the flop is crazy to me….

My first instinct is he’s got a king and thinks trips is good. Not likely AK from the action but maybe KT. Maybe he doesn’t know what he’s doing.

It’s hard to range a player if you don’t prod him a little. He’s going to check to the raiser with near everything. Did I mention that checking back the flop with the nut flush ‘semi-bluff’ is insane.

Why step off the gas when you’re in the driver’s seat. Keeping the initiative, being the aggressor is how you read villain.

As played, it’s a call
Your weakness on the flop kept either one of you from reading each other, so now you must guess. I see more bluffs than value available to villain and he’s also got value that you beat.

Wouldn’t raise, as this has been messy. Good chance when you call, you hear 2pair and take it down. If you do raise, villain probably only calls when you’re beat.

Don’t give up being the aggressor in spots like this or you’re better off folding pre-flop.

Snap call, and bet $75 on the flop next time.

Flop: I'm probably betting range small on this board, even with the SB in the hand. In theory you should likely have some check backs 3-ways, but I feel like in practice it's going to be a profitable range bet.

Especially with this hand I'm betting small to encourage check raises with air. This is the type of board people will make moves on. After you check back your opponents should be hearing alarm bells. I doubt you check back with air.

Turn: Delayed C-bet is OK I guess. You've got so much equity you really want to start building a pot in case your hand improves. I would have preferred betting flop then checking (or betting) turn.

River: As played to river I think you've got to go bigger. An overbet is mandatory. You'll likely get snap-called by flushes and trips. There are a bunch of other draws that missed, so you want to go polar and rep a missed spade or straight draw. You can also get hero-called pretty light here.

As played with your sizing, I'm torn between calling and re-raising. I normally do not support 3-betting river with a flush on a paired board, but if there is ever a time for it, this may be that time.

The pre flop open was from late position, so ranges are relatively wide. Flop checked through so entire pre flop ranges arrive at the turn. Ranges are still wide after the turn bet and call, with lots of draws and one pair hands possible.

On the river you're blocking full house combos, and your sizing was small enough that flushes likely raise and even stronger trips may be raising.

My only issue with raising is the effective stack size. I don't know what size you would raise to here? All-in seems like it might be too big to the point that you're usually beat when he calls. I'm not sure if the risk/reward is worth it to click it back to something like $1,000?

The question I would be asking myself is if I do make it $1,000, would I be confident enough to fold if he jams over the top? I would think he never has worse if he reraises again, but it would be a disaster if he turned trips into a bluff and got us to fold the best hand.

I don't know. I probably just call river.

Im half serious, is it really bad though? Seems like the perfect sizing if we are trying to extract thin value from a flush.

If we raise any bigger, we are repping boats only.

For the future, please do us all a favor and include the pot size on every street so we don't need to do maths.

After a quick first pass reading this, my gut reaction was never fold, just get it in. Let me look at it again...

Okay, so, grunch:

PRE - seems fine, obviously.

FLOP - honestly not sure if theory says we're supposed c-bet or check back. Curious what your reasoning for checking back is. My thinking would be we can c-bet K-high boards as the PFR at a high frequency, and even if we get raised, we have enough equity to continue.

TURN - I'd think if either opponent had 2P or a set, they'd lead out after you check back flop. We now have 2nd pair to go with our FD. If we'd bet flop, I might consider checking back now that we have some SDV, but there's no money in the pot, so I definitely want to bet, and since both opponents seem pretty capped, I think I'd over-bet, like $125-ish, give or take.

RIVER - Trying to figure out what SB has after he calls turn. Seems like his range would mostly be KX or a worse flush draw, or some bricked straight draw, or just TX. I think there's $275 in the pot. I'd want to size up to target KX and his worse flushes. So, probably bet around $475.

When SB x/r's...he's repping a boat? Like, KTs? That's two combos. 88? 33? Something stupid like K8 or K3? So he had 2P or a set that boated up, and he checked three times?

I dunno, man. You checked back the K-high flop, and only bet $85 into $105 on the turn. If I was SB and had a boat, I'd be concerned you'd check back, so I'd be donking here a fair bit. If I did check as a trap, and you bet 80% pot, I'd raise more than a min-click.

This sort of feels like something someone would do with QJhh. It kind of sucks to have the Th in our hand, making it impossible for him to have JThh or T9hh. Maybe he shows up and does this with Q9hh.

I know at lower stakes there are some players who won't 3B pre with AK in the blinds, so that's a possibility here.

Hard to find the bluffs. Maybe some TX combo that blocks TT, or some combo with the Qh.

Also hard to think he ever calls a 3B with worse. If he has AK or QJhh, and min-clicks it, it seems like he'd be more likely to fold to a 3B.

Yeah, I'm definitely not folding. But not sure there's any value in raising. Probably just call.

Just read the rest of the thread.

I don't know if I could trust myself to 3B-fold here, when V takes this line.

Sitting in front of my computer, I can almost wrap my head around an opponent taking this line with KTs, targeting flushes, and I guess maybe lower boats.

In game, I'd have a hard time looking past worse flushes and AK/KQ, or believing V is putting us on a worse boat, or even the nut flush, when we check back turn. And I'd have a hard time believing V takes this line with 2P or a set on flop and turn, and then checks again on the river.

Maybe he thinks our line looks like AhAx going for thin value, or maybe just KX. If V thinks we have AA or KX, I could see him taking this line with a boat, thinking that we'd over-fold to a larger x/r on this board.

I dunno. Maybe I'm missing something and we should 3B-fold here. But it feels like a punt, when he's either button-clicking and will fold, or he's built some overly-intricate trap.

I kind of like Joe's idea of clicking it back, but there again, I'd be concerned we'd be inducing shenanigans, and I think I'd only do that with KT/KK.

With the right image I think we can raise river to target his obvious flush.

I am a nit and just call.

Ugh...does he flat call pre with TT, and then sand-bag like this?

Flat pre (?!), check flop, turn a set, check again (?!), flat call on a two flush / two Broadway board (?!), check river when we boat up and the flush comes in (?!), then min-click it?

Seems like a very unusual line to take with a boat, but I can sort of make sense of it, if he thinks we'll go for thin value with AA, and otherwise always bet our trips and flushes.

Just flatting pre in the SB seems fishy. Not sure what to make of this line. Can't fold. Not sure there's enough value in raising. Just call.

Checking twice with a set or 2p on dbl flush draw board seems criminal. We beat worse flushes, I want to 3!, maybe opponent levels himself into thinking we’re turning AhKx/AhAx into a bluff (lol). 3!/fold is probably the right answer, I’m just calling.

Edit: honestly the check on the flop probably makes villain discount you having AhXh. 3! If we value own ourselves to be it

If both players seem like they know what they are doing why are we opening 3.5x on the button? That's just to exploit fish who call too wide and don't 3b enough.

Also stop making ridiculous assumptions based on seeing a guy fold 3 orbits. He's a reg. At the 5/10 level he probably doesn't give a **** that you stacked him and he's just card dead

The people who are saying range bet flop/bet flop have no idea what they are talking about, they don't even know basic flop strategy. Check back is fine.

River is arguably a 3b but I'd probably call. No idea what you are smoking asking if you can fold this. You could also bet 150% pot on river. The only purpose of your size is if you think villain is so good they'll read into your split river sizes and bluff and value raise you wider if you don't do it - but clearly that isn't why you picked this size otherwise you'd be 3 betting

Regarding the flop, I understand that small blind theoretically has the strongest range other than at the top end, and that a solver would be doing a lot of checking back from the button's position.

That being said you're really just checking back and giving up if you have air here? Really? You must not play in the same 5/10 games I play in. This isn't 5knl online.

dont think u gotta play 5knl to realize you can't range bet here. sb supposed to be leading ~30% of range for b25 if i get rid of that, button gets to cbet 36.5% of the time for small (25ish) sizing. multiway is just different re strategies, though this hand is like pure cbet. bet just never gets through 2 of them often enough, you end up way too weak on later streets, and become incredibly susceptible to aggression in pretty much every line if you cbet 100% here, for very little gain

Ok, fair enough. I feel like people are still overfolding to a small 1/4 pot bet on a board with no straight draws, but it's possible they're not and it's a leak. Maybe range betting might be too extreme.

If the board was K93 or K84 I'm never range betting, because all the gut shots turn into many more natural bluff raise and call continues from our opponents.

It's hard to defend enough on a K83 board though. SB is the one we're most worried about having a piece to continue, but they have to worry about the possibility of us having a hand, plus big blind could also have connected. If SB just calls and BB folds we'll have a lot of barrel opportunities on future streets.

I'm approaching this from how people will respond in the real world.

Look at the weakest SB and BB continues in your sim and ask yourself if real opponents are continuing that wide. That's all I'm saying.

Also SB is only supposed to be flatting 4.5% of hands vs a button open. I'm betting some random guy we don't recognize is wider than that.

yah the range i ran it on is 3x cev (so rakefree) and its got sb flatting around 11% and bb calling 30%.

didnt mean to call u out or anything, have just started looking more at multiway and i think people really leak by playing multiway like its headsup and not adjusting strategies. is pretty easy for both of them to defend when they share mdf.

sort of doubt sb is competent given river line but idk man, probably i have higher standards than op lol

No worries. I shouldn't double down on it being a range bet when it's clearly not (even if exploitatively a range bet might be OK in some scenarios).

It's still not a range bet spot in general. Lol. I knew that before I wrote my first post, but I think I was zoomed in on the heads up portion of the hand and thinking about it more like it was button vs BB defend. If the OP posted about what to do on the flop with J7c, I'm probably not saying bet range.