naked Ahhhh

If you can get it in 3 ways that has to be slightly +EV at least. Make it like $350 and jam every turn.

Technically, you could be drawing dead.

Grunch:

PRE - I liked it better when you limp-3B in the other thread. Probably would have done the same here. If I'm going to raise out of the blinds over a button straddle, I'm going bigger, at least $25, if not $30.

FLOP - I could see arguments for checking or c-betting really small. Our hand is basically a high-equity draw with some modest SDV, and potentially some bluff potential on a later street.

As played, it sure seems like they both have made hands. If we call, and the turn is another heart, it's hard to see how we'll get paid by very many worse hands. Since we have the Ah, if we flat again, maybe they both get concerned, the turn checks through, and we can look to play some poker on the river.

Then again, I dunno. If we call the pot will be around $500, and we'll only have $735 back. Even if the turn checks through, I don't know that I want to lead out for a slight over-bet on the river if we're trying to fold out 2P+.

I think folding could be fine. I think back-jamming given this action is interesting, when we have the Ah. It seems at least somewhat credible that we may have been slow-playing the flopped nuts and now decide we're just going with it before action killing cards come out.

Calling just to fold to a big bet on a turn brick feels icky, but we're getting such a price that it may be okay, assuming we're not drawing dead vs a straight flush.

I was kinda surprised when I looked at our equity in this hand. We're actually crushed here.

As a starting point, I looked at our equity vs a range of made hands and pocket 9's with a heart.

We have 25%

Board: 8h7h6h
Equity Win Tie
BU 53.11% 50.62% 2.49% { 88-66, T9s, 95s, 54s, KhQh, KhJh, QhJh, KhTh, QhTh, JhTh, Kh9h, Qh9h, Jh9h, T9o, 95o, 54o }
SB 21.24% 18.75% 2.49% { 9d9h }
BB 25.65% 25.40% 0.25% { AhAc }

We need to add a whole lot of airball spazzes to both V's ranges before we can even think about continuing.

Fold.

It's at least a call. We have a draw to close to the nuts.

We're already drawing to 4th nuts. If we make it, our hand will be virtually face up. We're out of position. And surely some of our outs are already dead.

We can get away from this hand and lose $60, or we can go broke while possibly drawing dead.

I know it looks crazy, but the numbers don't lie.

This is a fold.

Honestly I think a fold is probably best. It seems likely we're behind.

The problem is that when another heart hits, the additional money really only goes in when we're beat. I don't think anyone is calling off with a king high flush on a four flush board after this action. So it's a reverse implied odds situation.

I just limp in preflop per my style. 3ways to a biggish SPR of 13, albeit OOP, but against opponents that are unlikely to put us in too difficult a spot, so not a bad result.

With a hand with showdown value, not very vulnerable to the next card, but meanwhile not exactly looking to build a hugenormous pot on this board UI, and OOP, I'm fine with our flop check.

Not in love facing the flop raise, but overall it's still for a relatively small amount of the pot, we've got a nuttish draw (although with poor IO), and it's not impossible that we're still ahead. So I'm fine with the initial call.

Kinda weird spot facing this further action. I'm too lazy to math, but what immediate odds are we getting here? Any chance our A outs are good? A decent amount of our flush outs actually have poor RIO against straight flushes. Think this prolly a sigh fold unless we're getting better immediate odds than I'm eyeballing, and I doubt we have FE nor enough hand equity to get frisky.

GcluelessNLnoobG

So ... the guy who calls super wide and only raises value just bet/3bet the flop, and there's another guy in who raised and then called the 3bet after you cold called his raise? And you are thinking about calling anyway because your hand looks kind of pretty?

Next problem is that on any of these 4 cards: 4♥, 5♥, 9♥, T♥ ... there's four to a straight flush on the board. That's almost half your outs, if V1 or V2 don't have any of them.

Next problem is if V2 is tank calling JhTh now, how fast is he going to fold if you call the extra 100 and the turn is 2♥ and now you want to put money in?

Next problem is ~18% of the time the turn pairs the board.

Like fairly often you only have 2-3 "good" outs, and if you don't hit the turn then there's a decent chance someone shoves. Sometimes you are really lucky and are already drawing dead.

I think the check and calling the 45 cold the first time is an annoying/interesting spot, where you calling relies on it not being 3bet a _lot_ of the time but raising and folding also suck. After the extra 100 anything but fold requires god like reads or run good.

This reminds me of that other Banana thread, in which he flopped the nut flush on a 3-smooth SF board, and 27 people all wanted to dump money into the pot, and everyone called me a dunce for thinking someone had a SF and we should fold.

Once again, Banana reads may get me to type something stupid and inevitably wrong, but here goes...

V1 flatted pre. The read is he's a maniac / whale. Figure his range is wide enough that he has a lot of hands that would be a good bit worse than a straight-flush here.

V2 was apparently thinking about 3B'ing pre, over our raise from the BB, second to act when the BTN straddle is on. But then he decided to just call.

Among the reads on him is that he traps post, and we've seen him limp-call with 87o. Maybe he's flopped the nuts, but was he considering 3B'ing pre with 54s or JTs? Does it seem more likely that he might just have 66/77/88 that was considering a 3B but chickened out? Would he really start raising with the nuts now, if he likes to trap?

If we put any stock at all into Banana's reads (please no one ask me how much of my personal stock I'd like to invest), I'd think V1 could have 2P, sets, straights, or just 1P + a draw, and V2 could (should?) mostly just have straights, sets and some 1P + flush draw combos, and also maybe some flushes that aren't a SF.

When V1 bets, V2 is likely to raise for value and protection with most of his range. When hero calls the raise, and then V1 puts in a 3B, this is when I think V2 would start dumping money into the pot with the nuts, but otherwise go into defense mode with sets and straights.

Now that we've gotten to this point the way we have, I think our hand benefits a ton from equity denial if we jam for just under 2x pot.

If someone already has the SF and played it this way, nice hand, good game.

If we do continue, I actually like jamming like you suggest here better than calling. Basically we're turning our hand into a bluff with the A high flush blocker and we usually have equity when called. The key question is whether we can get a whale to fold a set, two pair, straight and or smaller flush. I don't know but it's possible.

Raise more pre. You’re oop facing bad players who call too wide.

The flop looks pretty. I would bet 20. AP, the flop now looks awful. Live, I probably call the 45 and proceed to lose my stack. After reading the posts, I would definitely just check/fold the flop.

Sir, nothing you've posted comports whatsoever with the reads given. Everything you've recommended runs counter to the information provided. You are in opposite world right now.

The read given was that he plays wide pre-flop, but rarely bluffs post. And if he does bluff, he's one-and-done. That guy just bet/3bet on the wettest flop in all of hold 'em. And you aren't giving him any flushes? NONE?

1P+draw? Are you trolling right now? You think we should jam 250BB's with our 4th nut draw into two villains with stone cold nut ranges because one of them might have something like pocket 9's with a heart?

Betting for equity denial is something you do when you're ahead and your opponent won't put more money in the pot unless he improves to a better hand than yours. None of that applies here. I don't think you know what "equity denial" means. What you're advocating for is called "bluffing". And it's not going to work in this spot. Ever.

I think the people saying fold are correct in hindsight, but at the time, in careful consideration, I decided I can make two pair and straights fold by ripping in my entire stack

REsult:

idk id call

I mean, I know you post brief responses a lot ... but why?

I feel like the reasoning here is worth a lot more than a random "Well I don't want to raise, and I don't want to fold, so I guess I call" (and you are the last person I'd expect that kind of reasoning from, so I assume it's something different).

Do you think V's will not shove brick turns correctly? And/or make it easier to play turns than I'd expect?

Do you think an AI sim with some kind of not-completely-insane ranges will have solver x/c/c as hero, so I guess we have to try to play that way?

Have you noticed that oftentimes in your threads you answer your own questions within your first post? I don't mean that to be insulting. Your reads are often spot on and the reads give you all the information you need to make the correct decision, which is like 3/4 of the battle in poker. Yet you often take different actions.

This is part of the reason that in another thread I recommended taking a break from poker. I don't know what the solution is to address this problem, as it seems like more of a mental game issue.

If I were to identify a pattern, it is that you often take aggressive actions where in retrospect you know it wasn't the best spot for it.

Honestly I had a similar issue in the past. I forget who said it, but I once heard a pro say that everyone has a natural tendency to either fold or put money in the pot. Basically he was saying in close spots we all have a bias one direction or the other. I think you and I both have the tendency to put money in the pot.

Anyway it might help to try to slow down when facing big decisions. Maybe create a brief mental checklist that you go through... at least before you go all in. Ex) How much equity do I have in the best case scenario? How much equity do I have in the worst case scenario? Do I have fold equity? Something simple like that.

Something like that might help to slow you down a little, so that you don't act impulsively without fully thinking through the situation.

looks astonishingly bad to call actually. thinking was mostly we are getting 4:1 and likely getting relatively close to that equity wise vs 2 extremely wide pre ranges, likely some amount of implied odds vs whale, ace turn gives us a ton of equity too. looks really really losing in solverland though. did not read super close but was thinking v2 can have 2pair or sets or whatever and v1 can be overplaying similar / straights / etc but just looks horribly incorrect.

interestingly it still looks very losing (though less) on 872hhh facing the same action. would probably not fold there vs these 2.

I shouldn't post late in the day on Fridays. I'm usually pretty fried from working all week.

You're right that "equity denial" isn't really the correct term for what I was thinking. My read of the situation is that neither V is necessarily nutted here, and we can make a lot of 2P and 1P + a draw combos fold if we jam. There's a non-zero percent chance they fold a set.

Yes, if we're hoping they fold 2P or a set, we'd be bluffing. But I do think they could have some 1P combos that also have a straight draw, and we'd be denying equity from those hands.

Would that make a jam a merge raise? I don't know.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the rest.

lol at trying to get a 1/3 player to fold sets and mega-draws.

seriously dude?

lol jamming? are you trying to bluff a flush?

No.

Of course he's not! He doesn't think villain's range even has any flushes!

I'm guessing it would have been around 2012 or so. I flop this huge hand in a pot where I'm the LP raiser in a HU pot, like the nut flush draw + gutty + pear. Opponent donks, I raise, and he 3bets. So the gig is obviously up, but we have almost nothing left, so I just 4bet the rest of it in there and he, getting about 10:1, ... folds. Lolz.

The reason I remember that story and bring it up here is cuz it's literally the only time I can recall (full disclosure, my memory is mush) seeing someone fold the flop after putting in a bet and a 3bet. Admittedly, I play in smaller stacked games than Banana.

Gso,yeah,inspiteofthetank,assumeourFEis0.00001%inthesecases,imoG