Aggro young V applies turn pressure at 1/3
1/3, $500 max BI, 9-handed. Rake is 10% up to $5, plus $1 or $2 drop. No promos during this session. Saturday evening.
V is on the BTN. Covers hero. He appears to be a mix of Asian and Caucasian in his early 20's. Only been at the table about an hour, but seems competent, and on the aggro side, but nowhere near maniacal. He's run good since he sat down, up a few hundred dollars. None of the hands he's played stand out in memory.
H is EP/MP, I think UTG+3. Starting with $465. Playing TAG for the most part, though I did show one bluff after squeezing on the button over a bunch of limps in a straddled pot. Other than that one hand, I've shown down winners when I put any real money into the pot post-flop.
SB / BB - not relevant to the post-flop action, but I had both pegged as not 3B'ing much out of the blinds, and fairly face-up post-flop.
OTTH...
Folds to H who opens to $15 with A♦2♦ from ~UTG3. Folds to V who flats on the BTN. Blinds fold.
FLOP ($30) - A♥J♥4♠
x, x.
TURN ($30) - A♥J♥4♠ 5♣
H $20. V doesn't think too long and raises to $100. H tanks for maybe 10 seconds, and calls with $350 behind.
RIVER ($230) - A♥J♥4♠5♣ A♠
Hero?
My thoughts in-hand:
PRE - A2s is a little light for an EP/MP open, but I'd mostly been folding pre, and figured I had a tight enough image that I wouldn't get multiple callers, and there was a decent chance I'd get this HU and IP against one of the blinds. I think BTN's defend range is going to be pretty wide when he's running good and action folds to him.
FLOP - I'm mostly checking range from OOP when HU as the PFR. If I'm going to c-bet an ace-high flop, I'd typically over-bet, but A2 isn't in that over-bet range. On this two-tone board, I'm expecting V to bet all his vulnerable A6-AT combos and any 2P or sets. But I'm not expecting him to start a three-street bluff on an ace-high flop. Not sure what he's doing with A5/A3/A2 combos that have the BD wheel draw.
TURN - when V checks back the flop, I think I usually have the best hand, and we picked up the BD wheel draw for some extra equity. I debated checking again to let him start a bluff.
I'm not sure, but I think when the flop checks through on a board that favors our PFR range, we're supposed to do a lot of betting for a small size, so I decided to bet out for a somewhat small size, mostly expecting him to either fold or call, but not entirely discounting the likelihood of him raising when my line looks a little FOS when I bet small after just checking the flop.
When he raised 5x, I thought he might have some turned 2P combos - 54s, maybe J5s at some frequency, and some A5. I also thought he could have a lot of bluffs here that would be very happy to just take it down, like 76hh and KQhh/KThh. He might turn A3 into a bluff here at some frequency. Maybe he shows up with an up-and down suited combo, like K5hh, that blocks AK, flopped the NFD with a BDSD and turned a pair.
RIVER - we improved to trips. Hard for him to have AX now, unless he's playing a bunch of unsuited combos. Not sure a bet can get called by worse. Not sure if worse bets if we check.
Open to feedback on every street. Expecting a lot of people to say fold pre, bet flop, or fold turn. Happy to hear reasoning for making different decisions at any point.
Do you ever bet/fold?
Ever?
id just fold the turn, Ax boards are underbluffed
probably check turn too, dont see much point betting
as played river doesnt change anything, probably just c/f to any bet bigger than 1/2 pot. if smaller i guess you have to call and hope he's bluffing b/c thats all you beat.
Preflop is meh. I'm not folding this hand, but I like a $10 raise better. Minor gripe though.
On the flop, bet/fold. Get value from the heart draws and any pairs that will float.
On the turn, bet/fold, for all the same reasons. You got it half right.
River - you should have never even gotten here. So it's moot and not worth discussing this street at all. We opened weak, missed a value bet, called a raise, and we're out of position against a range that has us crushed. As played, check/fold.
Just making sure, my 'bluff' didnt influence this hand of yours did it?
Normally I'd fold to the turn raise. In order for me to call the turn raise, I'd need to have a very good read on villain. Most ppl underbluff this spot.
As played on river check/evaluate.
I really want to know how you're ranging his turn raise as having so many bluffs? Every hand you mentioned had the exact same draw with more equity on the flop. If someone is gonna bluff, they bluff. They don't let you freeroll for a street and wait for you to value bet a made hand. that's not a thing in poker.
I think your play up to the turn is fine. I would fold the turn. I understand why you called, but this seems like a super under-bluffed spot. Is he really checking back a draw on the flop and then raising the turn with it? Is he really turning a weak pair (JT, 65s) into a bluff? I don't think so. Looks like A5 or 55 or 54s. I see people check back stuff like AJ or 44 to raise turn as a trap sometimes too. That seems way more likely than a bluff.
As played, check the river and hope he checks back 54s. I don't see what donking would accomplish. Don't love check/calling here, so probably planning on check/folding for any reasonable size.
Preflop: Hand is borderline between a GTO open and a fold (with a smaller GTO open size). Definitely in theory if you're using this large of a sizing A2s would be a fold. That being said if you think you have an edge on the table I think your open is fine.
Flop: Check is good. You don't need much protection with the highest pair, and any other ace beats you. This is a clear moderate made hand that plays well as a check.
Turn: I would check again, planning to check call. You need some aces in your check check range to protect your give ups, and you still lose to any ace. I think you want to bet your best aces on the flop (AK, AQ, AJ, maybe AT). After the flop checks through I would be betting most of the medium aces on the turn (AT if it didn't bet flop, A9, maybe A8). I would check again with the worst aces that aren't two pair, like this hand.
As played I probably exploitatively fold to the turn raise against most players. If you think they're capable of bluff raising this spot, then a call would be the right play, but it's a generally under bluffed spot.
River: As played up to this point, check and evaluate. With another ace on the board you improved to beat some two pair combos. The number of your opponent's value combos that include an ace are also drastically reduced when another one appears on the board.
If you face a big bet you still basically have a bluffcatcher. I probably make a crying call against a smaller bet, and try to get a read if he bets bigger.
When you check twice it often indicates a weak hand. You need some hands in your check check range that are strong enough to call a bet, otherwise your opponent can exploit you by bluffing with 100% of their air when you check twice (if you're always folding).
Edit: To explain further, this helps when you have a hand like king high that may be best, but can't call a bet. Also any two cards have some nonzero amount of equity, and benefit from realizing it rather than folding to a bet.
When you check twice it often indicates a weak hand. You need some hands in your check check range that are strong enough to call a bet, otherwise your opponent can exploit you by bluffing with 100% of their air when you check twice (if you're always folding).
So you're protecting your check-check range, not your give ups. Hence my confusion.
When you check twice it often indicates a weak hand. You need some hands in your check check range that are strong enough to call a bet, otherwise your opponent can exploit you by bluffing with 100% of their air when you check twice (if you're always folding).
So you're protecting your check-check range, not your give ups. Hence my confusion.
I worded it poorly. What I meant is you induce some bluffs by checking twice, that you can happily call with top pair.
Also your weaker hands benefit from not facing a bet as often. If your opponents know you sometimes have top pair even after checking twice, they are less likely to bluff, which benefits every weaker hand in your check check range. See my edit posted above that went through after you responded.
Just making sure, my 'bluff' didnt influence this hand of yours did it?
Normally I'd fold to the turn raise. In order for me to call the turn raise, I'd need to have a very good read on villain. Most ppl underbluff this spot.
As played on river check/evaluate.
Nothing you posted influenced me.
Turn raises are under-bluffed when the PFR c-bets flop and the SPR shrinks. I think the turn is somewhat less under-bluffed when the flop checks through, the pot is still small, the SPR is higher, and it looks like the PFR is just stabbing at it with a small bet, just trying to take it down.
I think a lot of low stakes players will check back with their draws on ace-high flops a lot, rather than start a three street bluff and risk getting blown off their equity by a big check raise.
I'm checking range here from OOP as the PFR. But when I check, I expect my opponents to bet their value hands on this two-tone, two-Broadway boards.
So, when he doesn't bet flop, I don't think he has a value hand, and his range getting to the turn is weaker, with more hands he can turn into bluffs.
Doc, I'm sure you're going to ignore this on the basis that I'm rude, and that's fine. But your ridiculous fishiness has got to be called out. This is a poker strat forum and 90% of what you post is rotten stinking garbage. When it gets called out, you invent some kind of rube-goldberg logic chain that justifies -EV plays. However, your delusions have no bearing on how poker is actually played and what it takes to make money in a live game.
I really think you just saw someone say "range-checking" and "range-betting" in a Youtube video somewhere and just decided it sounded cool so you started doing it. Constantly checking hands as the pre-flop raiser is so bad I don't even know where to start. Clearly you're not interested in maximizing poker profits. You want to bluffcatch. You're a showdown monkey who simply enjoys getting to the river and saying "ha ha, look I have the best hand!". Sure that's fun. And if that's how you wanna spend your money, go ahead. But stop coming to this forum and trying to convince us all that it's a good idea. It's not. It's terrible poker and you need to stop.
I think the turn is somewhat less under-bluffed when the flop checks through, the pot is still small, the SPR is higher, and it looks like the PFR is just stabbing at it with a small bet, just trying to take it down.
You decided to give up value on the flop so you could induce a bluff on the turn, so you could bluff catch. I get why you think that's fun. But most people are in poker to make money and what you're doing LOSES money. Also....your use of the word "stab" in your posts is off the charts. You just want to bluffcatch, so you've deluded yourself into thinking every bet is a "stab". You say "he's probably just stabbing" with no logical basis, no range analysis, and no reads. In fact, you often say that in spite of reads. All you're doing is lying to yourself because you want to justify your bluffcatch line.
I think a lot of low stakes players will check back with their draws on ace-high flops a lot
Yeah! So what's the exploit? Hint: it starts with a "b" and rhymes with "net"
If your opponent has a draw, and you have a made hand, you should bet. There is no way to make money from your opponent's draws by checking. You're just trying to induce a bluff so you can hopefully look smart when you call down.
Let's be absolutely clear about this now. Letting your opponents draw for free is bad poker. You can't justify it. You can't just say "I've decided I'm a range-checker" and use that as an excuse to let people freeroll their flush draws.
Please understand I'm actually trying to help you here. If it sounds nasty it's because I've lost my patience with you. You've been spoonfed terrific advice by a lot of people here (not just me), and every single goddamn time, you have an excuse why it doesn't fit your game and would be wrong for you. That's not logical. Everybody plays poker with the same 52 cards. If betting is +EV and checking is -EV then you need to bet. You can't invent some nebulous read to justify your terrible line. It won't change the math.
Bluff catching is fun. It's even +EV sometimes. But it has a time and a place. You've decided that time and place is every single hand.
1/3, $500 max BI, 9-handed. Rake is 10% up to $5, plus $1 or $2 drop. No promos during this session. Saturday evening.V is on the BTN. Covers hero. He appears to be a mix of Asian and Caucasian in his early 20's. Only been at the table about an hour, but seems competent, and on the aggro side, but nowhere near maniacal. He's run good since he sat down, up a few hundred dollars.
Pre is a bit loose from this position, but only marginally so. Personally I have no issue with the check on the flop, although we could also bet small to get calls from gutshots like KQ and KT, and value from KJ/QJ + all flush draws.
Ranging opponent on J5s on the turn seems a bit insane to me; as I think that is a hand he practically never calls pre even on the button. I also think that hands like KQhh and KThh would have started a bet on the flop instead of waiting until the turn, and the same goes for his thick value in 44 and AJ.
There are some bluffs here on the turn, so as played I would also call and evaluate river. But you shouldn't fall into the trap of 'checking range OOP' in a $1/$3 game, as that is just silly. If you are at a very tough table with only competent opponents; sure. But doing so as a default strategy will lose you a lot of money IMO. Checking a weak Ace OOP is certainly not terrible though, it just seems pointless to have it as your main strategy.
River is whatever, but since Villain seems to mostly have a bluff or a monster that is crushing you it would be no point to block here. A block must have the ability to get called by worse, after all. I assume you checked and he jammed or something?
Doc, I hate to say it but PD and BigWhale are right. Checking range as the preflop raiser on this board is absolutely horrendous.
Now A2 actually makes for a reasonable check, but if you have AK, AQ, JJ, etc. you need to be betting and building a pot. You should also be betting with bluffs.
I don't believe you're actually checking range on this flop, but if you are like you posted here that is a big mistake.
Charts and robots will disagree, but I'm folding this hand preflop in this early of position, especially with a solid player on the Button (which he is incentivized to play).
Against ABC face-up passive fish, I'd probably just do some bet/folding postflop. But against more competent players, I'm all for checking here, underrepping, and attempting to get to showdown for a reasonable price in a reasonable sized pot. So I'm cool with the flop check.
Think I might lean to another check on the turn against this guy. Really cool with continuing to underrep and inducing a reasonable sized stab or two in order to bluffcatch / get to showdown / maybe realize that gutshot equity. And really don't want to face a raise or have pressure applied to this weak a hand (which he is capable of doing). Kinda gross spot now facing the raise. Other than our flop check, we've made a couple of other decisions that basically put us exactly where we don't want to be, in a bloated pot OOP with a weak hand versus a player capable of making life extremely difficult.
As played, I'm honestly not sure what to do on the river. Some draws have busted and we've counterfeited some hands, so my guess is to check/call to allow him to continue to steal. But also sorta hating life if he makes a big bet. I'm guessing betting can't possible be good cuz how does he pay off with worse?
GcluelessNLnoobG
Preflop: this is kinda on the cusp for me but I like suited aces.
Flop is puzzling
Just my thoughts but if you were not going to keep the initiative, you should’ve folded pre
You bet to continue the story that you have a strong hand. You bet to pressure villain, you bet to see how villain reacts (get info), you bet because….
Checking is so weak - the story now is your hand is not a strong hand, so you have enabled villain and you now have no idea of what his actions mean. You lost control
If he was being a funny guy flatting the dirty diaper, you gave him a FreeCard to take your stack.
I know we like to consider all the combos or we can just say the population underbluffs at 1/3. Don’t think he’s bluffing, but he could now be overvaluing 2nd pair or way ahead with 32
I check the river and there’s a good chance he checks behind facing a scary river like this. If he does bet, it just feels like a guess.
Takeaway
The reason you fold Ax suited early is it’s a bluffing hand that doesn’t play well without position. In my opinion if you’re coming in light you bet bigger on the flop and discourage calls. It should be hard to call your bet when they miss the flop 68% of the time.
Pre is fine to mix things up. I like a c-bet/decide on the flop. If I check the flop, I mostly check/call the turn, but I don't mind the bet. Whether I call depends on what this guy will bluff/raise with. River is a check/decide.
