5 10 NLH QQ AK
Hero is BB, Villain is button. Prior action is, first, Hero re-raising Villain's button raise of limpers from the BB, to which Villian folds. Also, played in a Live MTT the day before, and Villian's 'image' of Hero is an aggressive, good player.
Hero picks up AK suited BB; Villain re-raises a weak min-raise (of a 25 blind straddle UTG) to 200; Hero makes it 800 from the BB; Villain smooths.
Flop is 2 4 5 rainbow; Hero shoves for the remainder of Villain's stack, $1825. Villain flips QQ and Hero does not improve.
My logic was:
Not checking, because he's betting regardless of strength in that case. A smaller bet pot commits me in any case and gives him the opportunity to shove over with a hand he could theoretically fold to a shove. Stuff like A5, A4, A2 etc, and then, more realistically speaking, 66 77 88.
Am I supposed to check and get a read and be willing to give up? Unsure his sizing would have revealed anything, definitely a very solid player.
19 Replies
Ok, I don't play this big but here's my take of this hand.
Ok let me help you restructure your wording.
A straddle of 25.
A guy min open for 50
V in btn 3bets to 200
Hero cold4bets to 800 w/AK in BB
V calls
Pot 1690
Flop 524r
Hero jams for pot 1825
Ok, heres my own opinion.
Your 4bet sizing is too big. You committed 30% of your stack. You're literally pot committed w/most random cards.
4bet sizing wise somewhere around 25% is the threshold, assuming you have bluffs in your range, you can still fold.
So 25% is something like 650 is the max I'd 4bet to. Whether Villain calls/jam/fold we don't care.
Say we do 4bet 650, V calls
Pot would be 1350+
There would still be 1975 behind, and no we wouldn't jam on the flop, although we have many outs. We can play our hand like AA/KK.
We can cbet small like 1/5 or whatever.
We can jam most turns or even continue making small bets.
Anyhow as played, AK vs QQ on such flop is a cooler.
Sizing was like the issue I see. Preflop and flop. But it didn't really matter(results wise).
Pre too big.
Flop too big.
It’s clear as day you have whiffed Ax, so be prepared for them to play perfectly.
Can understand this take. Would add that the pre-flop sizing was meant to induce pushback with a vulnerable hand. The idea of him taking a stand given the prior action was plausible. On the other hand, sorry, but I've got fold equity on anything worse than TT. If you're replying to a message board thread, snapping with 66 77 88 99 isn't too difficult. If it means putting $2k on the line at the table, different matter.
Can understand this take. Would add that the pre-flop sizing was meant to induce pushback with a vulnerable hand. The idea of him taking a stand given the prior action was plausible. On the other hand, sorry, but I've got fold equity on anything worse than TT. If you're replying to a message board thread, snapping with 66 77 88 99 isn't too difficult. If it means putting $2k on
If he has anything worse than TT which is a big if. I think RA is exactly right.
Can understand this take. Would add that the pre-flop sizing was meant to induce pushback with a vulnerable hand.
The reasons you go smaller pre are:
1) Stack commitment issues at this size
2) You shouldn't have a flatting range here, so you want to use a size that's more favorable for what ends up being a wholly linear range to maximally accommodate your VPIP candidates, many of which don't want to get stacks in pre (see above).
Putting aside whether the objective is even to induce light action from them with this combo, I don't think putting 32 straddles in cold 105 straddles deep accomplishes that. Gameflow notwithstanding, at the end of the day the best way to widen someone's continuing range is to go with a smaller size so they are obligated to continue lighter.
On the other hand, sorry, but I've got fold equity on anything worse than TT. If you're replying to a message board thread, snapping with 66 77 88 99 isn't too difficult. If it means putting $2k on the line at the table, different matter.
I think we have different experiences with 5/T regs. Many fold 99- pre and many call the flop jam; I don't think there's much overlap between regs who put in a third of their stack pre with 99- only to fold to a single PSB when it manages to fade all overcards on THE board where whiffed overs are most likely to overjam.
That being said, looking at the exact stack and pot sizes you set up here (it'd be helpful to put this in OP btw), a go & go play might be perfectly viable once you show up this way and it might not matter whether they play perfect. I, as a rule, don't get to flops at this SPR heads up as the PFR, because that necessarily means I raised 30% of my stack.
we can just flat pre and go 3 way.
if we do that we leave the door open for minraiser to come along with a worse ace and potentially stack him.
as played we’re letting him play perfectly, he’ll fold AQ/JJ/worse and shove AA/KK probably QQ too.
as played vs 3better he’s also never laying down any pairs he continues with and can trap AA.
spewy size pre, punt postflop.
do we want AKs in our 4bet range, in theory yes.
in practice in a game where people are doing fishy stuff like UTG straddle (assuming not mandatory) and minraising the straddle we get way bigger mistakes to be made against our hand when we play it as a flat rather than a 4bet.
Straddle was in fact mandatory
I'd probably just flat pre. If we flat pre we're generally just naturally checking from OOP on the flop.
As played...the 4B size seems needlessly big. Think we get the same result making it $500-$600. The flop jam...are we just trying to make anything that isn't AA/KK fold?
I don't really want to get into another debate about whether or not our IP opponents have a 5B range pre. If they don't, then we could run into AA/KK. If they do, then we're basically trying to get a range fold from a range that supposedly doesn't have any AA/KK.
I dunno. I don't think this is how we'd play AA/KK, so I think we're asking a lot if we're trying to get a range fold.
Good example of the problem with AK
You get it often (lot of combos) and it’s not as strong as you think it is. While I’d rather you jam with it, than call off with it, I think both are mistakes. The problem with the jam is when you get called.
You will miss the flop with any hand 68% of the time. Personally I think a drawing hand should be played carefully and be folded at times. I would call the 3bet OOP check and see what villain does on the flop. I don’t want to bloat a pot until I hit something with this hand.
There’s always going to be ‘it depends’ but the old folks say ‘don’t go broke with big slick’
Yet, I see people stack off constantly
Sometimes you have to gamble, I understand
I would never put myself oop with AK in a 4bet pot at high stakes without a read. Count actions and hole cards during the previous hands. A soul read on the flop is too subjective.
Your decision on the flop wholly depends on Vs range here and his bluff frequency. If he calls 4bets in position tight and bluffs 1/3 of the time on the flop, you are toast.
Low stakes I would just check the flop because opponents bluff too infrequently in this spot. With high stakes I have no experience.
I don't think people who play 5/10 view it as high-stakes. I think this is relative, for those of us who play 1/2 and 1/3. The guys playing micro-stakes online might think we're ballers.
I like thinking about the mental game, so I'll try to offer a contribution in that regard. Poker is tricky because we have a tangible measure of "success" sitting in front of us. We all love stacking chips, but we should also be cognizant of stacking good decisions. One good decision often leads to another... and then another. Think of it as an upward spiral. Here's the key: A good decision isn't necessarily connected to pulling in more chips. A good decision can stand on its own. They build on each other.
i think your heading the right direction but A5, A4, A2 probably fold to the cold 4. if they dont, theyre only suited with leaves 6 combos total. 33s probably a stretch and even 55s. so his range is going to be like 66-QQ which is 42 combos, 6 combos of suited wheels and say AJs, AQ, AK unless you think he 5b AK then we can exclude that. thats 3 combos of AJs, 12 combos of AQ. lets assume he folds 66-88, AQ and AJs and the 6 combos of wheels that makes a total of 6+18+3 = 27 folds and 99-QQ call which is 24 combos. your betting 1825 to win 1675 so you need to win 53% and 27 / (27+24) = 52.9%
seems legit. if we can edge out some folds from 99 or TT its even better for us.
i think your heading the right direction but A5, A4, A2 probably fold to the cold 4. if they dont, theyre only suited with leaves 6 combos total. 33s probably a stretch and even 55s. so his range is going to be like 66-QQ which is 42 combos, 6 combos of suited wheels and say AJs, AQ, AK unless you think he 5b AK then we can exclude that. thats 3 combos of AJs, 12 combos of AQ. lets assume he folds 66-88, AQ and AJs and the 6 combos of wheels that makes a total of 6+18+3 = 27 folds and 99-QQ call which is 24 combos. your betting 1825 to win 1675 so you need to win 53% and 27 / (27+24) = 52.9%
seems legit. if we can edge out some folds from 99 or TT its even better for us.
Reading this part again:
...Hero picks up AK suited BB; Villain re-raises a weak min-raise (of a 25 blind straddle UTG) to 200; Hero makes it 800 from the BB; Villain smooths.
If our thinking behind the 4B is that we don't want to cap our range by cold calling a 3B, I think this spot is different enough that we can cold call.
The original raise was a min-click. We could treat that like a limp, and treat the 3B like it's just an open. If the original raiser is tricky and will min-click 4B squeeze, okay, let him. We get to see what the BTN does before action gets back to us. We can fold to a 5B from the BTN, or double flat if BTN folds, or possibly even back-raise 5B if we think the 4B is FOS. We'll certainly look very FOS after we cold called a 3B in the BB.
I feel like cold calling 3bs OOP with AK violates even the most privative LLSNL precepts of preflop play.
Are you guys actually getting worse?
Yeah the flat pre suggestions are quite bizarre.
I mean...if I understand OP, V opened to 8x the UTG straddle, or he 3B to 4x the $50 min-click. Maybe the debate should be about whether we continue at all or just fold. Even a 3x size 4B commits a big chunk of our stack. Would the plan be to 4B-fold if V jams?
