King Eight IP flops big
1/3 NLHE 9 handed
I've transferred to this table late in my session as mine got worse and worse. Several loose passives a
I agree w/ gg. Reads contradict.
Nice BigFish, there you go Banana!
GcluelesspresidentoftheAvatarlessClubG
Lol @ Java.
GmakeitsoBanana!G
They are playing 5 card draw in the picture.
Maybe try playing on taste rather than smell. You aren't that far behind pot odds if he has a set. It is a very easy call because he sometimes has a draw or AQ or something.
They are playing 5 card draw in the picture.
Maybe try playing on taste rather than smell. You aren't that far behind pot odds if he has a set. It is a very easy call because he sometimes has a draw or AQ or something.
It only looks that way because this is banana's perspective and he's drunk.
They're actually playing hold em and the guy on the right that he identified as a MAAG is Phil Ivey.
The ones are worth 1k.
Banana doesn't even realize he just signed over the deed to his house.
😂
Picture is from 70+ years ago. They are playing NL 5 card draw and all smoking cigars. The air must have been terrible.
You are 18% against a set and putting 30% of the money in. You have to be awfully sure he has a set to fold. He is capable of doing this with a draw, and you are usually way ahead of a draw. So he doesn't have to have a draw that often for the turn to be a call.
if he has nfd - he has 10 outs - 40/60
if he has smaller fd (JTcc example) - 9 outs 36/64
if he has AcQx he should of 3b pre but i think we give him this combo and remove QQ - so we have 13 outs 48/52
QJc - 13 outs 48/52
we block 88 so only 33 here - we have 9 outs 64/32
Q8 - 12 outs 52/48
we have 60, 64, 52, 52, 32 or 48. discount as you like based on reads but this is just a spot where variance will come into play. nothing you can do but stick it in and pray.
also never check flop. ever. ever. there is no argument for checking ever, we want to get as much money in as possible.
if he has nfd - he has 10 outs - 40/60if he has smaller fd (JTcc example) - 9 outs 36/64if he has AcQx he should of 3b pre but i think we give him this combo and remove QQ - so we have 13 outs 48/52QJc - 13 outs 48/52we block 88 so only 33 here - we have 9 outs 64/32Q8 - 12 outs 52/48we have 60, 64, 52, 52, 32 or 48. discount as you like based on reads but this is just a spot
Agree that we should just B/C flop and call the turn jam.
But checking back flop is far preferable to folding turn. You want some flush draws in your check back range, and one with showdown value is not a bad combo to take a passive line with.
I'd probably raise more pre.
Would bet "slightly" less on the flop. $20 is an obvious size, 25 if people need more incentive to fold. Could even exploit bet 45-55 with this hand, but don't love 35.
Anyone saying don't bet the flop, or only do it with perfect info. on what Vs will do can GTFO.
Given we are like 60 straddles effective, I probably just shrug shove flop. FWIW I doubt he ever folds AQ, but also doubt he ever folds Ac5c.
After that I prefer fold to calling, if we are going to fold this turn, because turn action is predictable.
Note: This is maybe the first hand you posted where I think the mental game / downswing might be getting to you (for good, or bad). IMO roughly no chance Stupidbanana from 6 months ago plays the hand this way. And while the advice for a downswing is to play less agro. and tighter, the way to do that here is just limp along the BTN with this hand.
No b/r flop always. We can check back flop with NFD that unblocks combo draws for villain. So no Jc, Tc, 9c. Its SRP and we are PFR. We have a ton of NFD here that unblock combo draws, I would choose to check those back.
There was a recent video, I think Upswing poker, that gave this heuristic. If you have an Axss and x is middle card, like ATs here, on an otherwise dry 1-broadway board, check it back. It's so easy to remember I think we're going to be seeing more of it in live games.
That should also be fine.
My point is that there are several ways to play our hand here (middle pair + FD) where the EV is going to be similar. They all involve seeing all 5 cards. You have so much equity here and you really want to realize it.
If you are going to fold to a turn jam, then it's better to just jam flop like you say when your equity is highest. Or you could even check back flop. That would be better than folding turn. The real mistake is folding at any point before the river.
The reason I slightly prefer bet/calling flop and then calling turn is because you give him an opportunity to keep bluffing with any lower equity bluffs (like dominated flush draws that are basically drawing dead). Those might fold if we jam flop, but could jam turn if we just call flop. Whether you're jamming flop or calling turn you're going to be getting it in sometimes against the top of his range, when he has hands like sets where you have to hit your FD to win. Those hands never fold. I would prefer to also keep in the weaker portions of his range that we're in great shape against.
You open BTN to 20 with Kc 8c totally fine. Suited plays well IP, deep enough. 3 loose players call including UTG straddler.
Pot $80. 4 ways. When a tight straddler just calls, his range is usually: small /medium pairs, broadways, suited aces, some suited connectors, some traps, but usually less common mulitiway OOP.
Flop Qc, 8s, 3c $80. Checks to you, your bet was good sizing mulitiway. Your betting, top pair, strong draws, good 8x, some Qx, nut club draws. You have, middle pair, 2nd nut flush draw, backdoor straight possibilities. Very standard bet, Both SB and BB folds then your being check raised to $135, leaving him $275 behind. This is where the hand is decided. Think in ranges, not stories. Live 1/3 MAAG who: VPIPs tight, traps monsters, can blast when tilted, just lost 3 buy ins, previously check raised jammed AKo. That last history matters, but don't overweight one emotional hand.
What is he check raising mulitiway? This is key, this is 4 ways originally, not HU. Check raising multiway is way stronger than HU.
Value hands, QQ, 88, 33, two pair Q8s maybe, 83s rare, possibly AQ, possibly KQ, occasionally AA slow played pre, straddle dynamic
Semi bluffs, Ac Xc, Kc Jc, Jc Tc, Tc, 9c, maybe 9c 7c type hands. But here's the thing, when a tight player check raises large into 3 opponents on Q83cc, that range is heavily weighted toward strong made hands at 1/3.
Your hand vs that range, you have 8x, not top pair, K high flush, not nut draw, no straight draw. Against sets, you're 30-35%. AQ/KQ you're 40-45%. Nut flush draws, you're ahead but flipping, combo draws, small edge.
But here's the killer, he has $275 behind, if you call, $100 more: pot becomes $350, he has $275 left, turn spr under 1, you are basically committing, this is not a call and re-evaluate spot, this is fold or jam, calling to see what happens is a mistake.
So, jam or fold? If he's value heavy, you're in bad shape, if he's tilted and blasting wide, you're in good shape.
The question is: does a tight MAAG who is stuck 3 buy ins, suddenly check raise bluff 4 ways on Q83cc? Most don't. They spew HU, they spew in ego wars, they spew after being challenged, this is a multiway pot where he was the straddler, this line is strength heavy.
At 1/3, big multiway flop check raises, I have it, or, I have a monster draw, even against a monster draw, many contain Ac, if he has Ac Xc, you're actually in rough shape because: you're dominated flush wise, your Kc is often dead.
This is a disciplined fold, it's uncomfortable, and feels nitty, people convince themselves: I have a flush and a pair, I can't fold this, but this is exactly where long term winners separate.
You're not drawing to the nuts, you're likely against strong value, you're in a low SPR spot, you're against a tight player in a multiway XR, this is not the sexy hero jam spot. If this was HU, I'm much more willing to jam, but mulitiway flop check raises change everything.
On the flop, 2 pair is sort of unlikely and you are 43% against Q8s. You are 50-60% against nut flush draws. You are about even against AQ/QJ, 40% against KQ. Combo draws would be flush draws plus gutshot, JcTc, Jc9c, Tc9c, and you are 72% against those. There are some pot odds with dead money if you gii. He would need to have a set a lot for the flop to be a fold.
Once you call the flop, folding the turn is worse than folding the flop, because of the pot odds and equity against his range.
You open BTN to 20 with Kc 8c totally fine. Suited plays well IP, deep enough. 3 loose players call including UTG straddler.Pot $80. 4 ways. When a tight straddler just calls, his range is usually: small /medium pairs, broadways, suited aces, some suited connectors, some traps, but usually less common mulitiway OOP.Flop Qc, 8s, 3c $80. Checks to you, your bet was good sizing mu
A few things...
When he check raises the other two players had already folded, so he's not really check raising into three players. He's check raising into a multiway flop cbet from a button opener. Facing a raise here from the straddle, who should have the widest range, after the others have folded is generally not going to be as strong as if you were facing a raise from the SB, who should have the tightest range, and who would be raising into three people.
A second point.
You said if his range was bluff heavy you would prefer to jam flop. You see the logic disconnect there? If his range was bluff heavy why would you want to raise and fold out all the bluffs? Wouldn't you prefer to just call, then give him an opportunity to bluff all in on the turn when you're way ahead? I suppose there is some merit in folding out whatever equity he has, but if you're getting it all in you would prefer for it to be as wide of a range as possible. As you point out you're not in particularly good shape against the top of his range.
Kinda surprised this thread is still going.
V called pre from the straddle, getting over 4.7 to 1. He could get to the flop with a range of ATC. He can certainly have Q8, Q3, 88, or 33.
He's probably not x/r'ing the flop with total air. If he is, he's probably not barreling turn with air. All V's most likely bluffs on the flop picked up equity or improved to a better hand. We could be drawing dead or close to it.
Just a bad turn card. It's fine to call flop with lots of equity to improve and fold turn when our hand gets turned to dust.
What hands are you drawing close to dead against on the turn? You are 18% against a set and need to put in 30% of the money. You are 27-38% against 2 pair.
The paintings with the dogs playing poker are from about 1903 to advertise cigars, which is why they are all smoking cigars. They are playing 5 card draw, probably no limit.
