QQ 4-ways with SPR of 1.3 on 874, 2-flush flop

I bet 100, SB called with about 110 behind, UTG folded, UTG+1 moved allin covering. About 210 to call, 630 in the pot and BB likely to call the other 110, so 210 to win 950.

When spr is so low, there's no way we folding this flop.

It's just a cooler when they have you beat.

It's either bet small like 50 or jam. Not in between for like 100.

I think ~80 flop, shove turn or just shove flop are both fine. I think I slightly prefer the latter. There are plenty of 99-JJ hands that aren’t folding flop and it would be a shame for an A or K to come on the turn and scare them away. I just want to maximize value against their overpairs. Not at all worried about the times they flop 2p+

As played, calling the jam. I expect there to be some smaller OPs as well as draws (and of course a few hands that beat you now, but oh well)

I thought about betting smaller on the flop or pushing. I realized 100 made it sort of obvious I was committed, but I didn't think they were good enough to exploit that. I didn't want to give too good a price on the drawy board.

I guess if I made it 50 and there is a call and push, I still need to call the shove, as I am getting worse pot odds, but I look weaker so could induce. For example UTG+1 could think JJ/TT is good.

I particularly wanted to gii on this flop, with no overcards, possible draws, and mid pps missing sets.

I like offering poor 8:1 IO preflop if I'm going to be setting up a small SPR where it is unlikely I'll be able to fold an overpair. So ~$65 (pretty much what we did) seems fine to me.

If someone has outflopped me (for this pretty horrendous preflop price) they're getting all my chips one way or another. I think I would probably just lean jam. That admittedly might be missing some value from some one pear hands. But a small bet is giving all reasonable draws the correct odds to continue (assuming we're never folding). Might be more reason to bet smaller with a more invincible AA, but with a more vulnerable QQ I'm just getting it in now.

ETA: Not loving the action we're facing after our bet, but I don't think we should be folding at this SPR on this board.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Grunch:

PRE - seems like we could raise bigger in this lineup.

FLOP - Bet 1/4 pot, like $60.

It's super multi-way, and the board is super draw-heavy. We don't really want to bloat the pot so multi-way with just an over-pair.

That c-bet is too big for a multi-way pot, especially on a wet and connected board.

My usual rule of thumb is just c-betting the same size I raised pre. So if we make it $60 and 3 people call, the pot will be $240, and our $60 c-bet will be 1/4 pot. I'll size up or down sometimes, for whatever reason, but it's a good starting point.

I'm ok leaning bigger with sizing given it's 4 way. $90 on flop and then shove turn.

As played, if BB or UTG1 has KK or a set then good for them, but there's enough 55, 66 and then 99-JJ iin their ranges plus nut flush draws and other spazz that we have to call

3!s were sometimes not getting callers. My 3!s are not all big pairs, which interferes with set mining.

Part of the reason I got so many calls was they were set mining.

I called UTG+1s shove figuring I was probably behind, but had to call with pot odds. UTG+1 showed 88 for top set. I showed and BB showed 66 for a gutshot and set outs against a big pair. I can see he thought he had outs against a big pair and was ahead of AK or something. Obviously, loose play by BB preflop and on the flop, but typical of him and many low stakes players. I was 8% with 2 outs and UTG+1 was 16% with 4 outs.

I could have bet small and folded to too much action, but decided to gii regardless with low SPR on a wet board that should miss them.

Jam flop, we aren’t bluffing this spot. Our only sizing should be all in. Lots of draws to deny or get value from.

If they are calling 3bets to set mine, you will get their money eventually. However, this is something to consider when you raise a big pair, as people love cracking aces.

Not recommending a bigger 3bet, you simply got coolered here. If v was betting 1,500 into this pot, I could get away from queens, but you’re priced in.

This line / thinking is probably fine when not committed in a large SPR pot.

Not sure if you noticed it ("we don't want to bloat the pot"?), but here the SPR is ~1. We're 100% committed so giving draws proper odds to continue when we can't fold is not good, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I didn't say anything about not bloating the pot. I just made a standard sized raise. Sometimes standard sized 3!s were not getting called. Unlike you, I am not only 3-betting big pairs that need protection from set mining.

Anyway, my 3! was 1/6 of my stack and BB cold called it for 1/4 of his stack with 66. Once there are two callers, yes UTG+1 has odds to put in another 45 with 88. However, no one was really getting more than 8-1.

Indeed, I did overlook how short hero started out.

I said in my first post that I thought we could 3B bigger. Seeing that we're only starting with $370, I think I'd like a bigger 3B even more now. If we made it $75 pre, the pot would be $300 on the flop, and we'd have $295 left. Almost exactly 1 SPR, and good enough to jam.

As played...I'm not certain we are 100% committed to calling off the rest of our stack here, on this board. The SPR is 1.33, but we lose to all the sets, all the 2P, and all the straights. We don't have the Qc in our hand, so we don't even have a backdoor re-draw to the 3rd nut flush.

If this were heads up, I'd be happy getting stacks in. Versus 3 opponents, I kinda think our hand is almost never good if we get it in against anyone but the short-stacked BB.

All that said, when we get here the way we do, I don't really like any of our options. I wouldn't necessarily expect a jam to get through all three opponents. And if we jam, and the BB calls, the other two will be getting a nice price to chase their draws.

I dunno, but...I kinda think I might check this back and look to jam a clean turn, if there is one. Maybe BB lead-jams turn, the other two fold, and we can happily call off the $210. Or BB checks again, one of the other two bets small, and we can feel good enough jamming over a more capped range.

Or, whatever, just jam flop and hope nobody calls with a better hand. Kick our own a$$ for not 3B'ing bigger pre, to make sure we don't end up in this situation.

And you try to tell me you're not a nit. 🙂‍↔️ GG, the king of the nits, is telling you you're being too nitty.

This is the sort of spot I used to bet small on the flop, then shove turn, which I now think is a mistake.

People will call you with all kinds of nonsense, and it just gives them a chance to catch up for cheap. The same goes for checking. Even if they don't catch up, a scare card often hits turn and allows them to get away.

I think the best play is just to jam flop. They will call with nonsense against a jam too, but you force them to make a mistake by doing it. If they're calling you wide enough that this flop is hitting them and allowing them to catch up, their range is wide enough that they've got all kinds of junk you're way ahead of too.

Against 3 players QQ is going to lose more than half the time, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be getting it in. You only need to win on average more than your pot share. So in a four way all in situation preflop on average you only need to be winning better than 25%. Once you see a flop with all the dead money it's less than that.

I didn't think I was trying to tell you anything. I know I'm not a nit. But if that's how you see me, not much I can do about it, I s'pose.

In the 1/3 games I play, a jam here rarely gets called by worse when the pot goes four ways to the flop. This board just smacks all the fishy ranges that get to the flop the way our opponents got to this one.

This isn't going to be a 4-way all-in, unless our opponents all lose their minds or they all have QQ beat.

I actually stacked 3 opponents in a single 1/3 hand in a spot like this - UTG1 opened wide with K8cc to $15 off $350, two calls, CO whale 3B's to $45 (LOL!) with AKo off $700, BTN flats with AJo off $450, I flat from the SB with JcTs (flame suit on) off $900, BB folds, UTG1 and the two callers all call, and we're 6 ways to the flop with $270 in the pot.

Flop was AcKsQc. I donked $200. UTG1 jams $305, next two fold, CO calls, BTN re-jams for $405, and I rejam for another $350 to put CO all in. He calls.

So it's me with the nut straight vs middle pair + NFD vs top 2P vs TP + GSSD, and I hold to drag in a $2300 pot. Ran the numbers later than night, and I was only like 44% to scoop.

It's low stakes and super multi-way. QQ is rarely going to be good here if all the money goes in.

nobody is calling your all in with worse so if you jam its for protection only.

BB called half his stack with 66 with a pair, gutshot and set draw.

That is why I didn't just shove though.

I'm referring to another thread where I was disagreeing with your nittiness. In that one you wanted to leave yourself an out to possibly fold KK preflop. That was when considering a 4-betting strategy versus a 3-bet from an ultra-aggressive reg. Seriously though when one of the more conservative players on the forum (GG) is telling you you're being too conservative, you might want to listen.

There's a huge difference between an 874 board in a 3 bet pot and an AKQ board.

Anyway based on your posting history, you're way too tight when it comes to putting your stack in, specifically in low SPR spots. This is why I've tried to get you to start checking out some solver outputs. I think it would be eye-opening for you. Alternatively, you could try running some spots through something like chatgpt. It makes some obvious errors (like below it says there are two flush draws on this flop), but it's still a good way to test your thinking and challenge your assumptions.

I've already diagnosed the reason why I think you tend to play so tight when it comes to putting your stack in. You're never bluffing in a lot of these spots. Your opponents adjust by folding everything unless they can beat enough of your perceived value range. As a result it seems like you need an incredibly strong hand to stack off.

The part of the feedback loop you're missing is that if they're stacking off incredibly tight you should be bluffing aggressively to exploit their tendencies to overfold. In turn they eventually see that you're bluffing sometimes, and start stacking off lighter.

Chatgpt's take when prompted with the OP:

"You’re in one of those rare live 1/3 spots where SPR ≈ 1.3, you’re multiway, you have a strong but vulnerable overpair, and the board is extremely dynamic. The decision is actually simpler than it feels in real time.

The cleanest, highest‑EV line is shove.

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🧩 Why shove is best (given this exact table + villain types)

1. SPR is already in shove territory
Pot: 233
Stack: 310
SPR ≈ 1.33

With an overpair on a wet board, multiway, and this SPR, solvers shove almost universally. Live players call even wider.

A small bet or a 100–120 sizing creates awkward turn SPRs and gives the entire table a chance to realize equity with:

- AcXc
- 9T / 65 / 98
- 76 / 87 / 54
- Random floats
- Underpairs that will peel once

You don’t want to play turns out of position to three players with an SPR of 0.5–0.8.

2. The BB whale is the most important factor
He:

- Cold‑called a 3‑bet with QJo
- Calls down light
- Has rebought twice
- Is sticky postflop

This is the exact profile you want to jam into with an overpair on a low board. He will call with:

- Any 8
- Any 7
- Any club draw
- Any straight draw
- 99–JJ
- Random nonsense

You want him to put his stack in before the turn card scares him.

3. UTG and UTG+1 ranges are capped
They didn’t 4‑bet pre, so they almost never have:

- AA
- KK
- QQ (blocked)
- AKs of clubs (rare but possible)

Their ranges are mostly:

- 99–JJ
- A8s, 87s
- T9s, 65s
- Some suited broadways
- Some suited connectors

You’re ahead of almost all of this.

4. The board is too wet to bet small
8c 7d 4c is one of the worst boards to give cheap cards on:

- Two straight draws
- Two flush draws
- Tons of pair+draw combos
- Multiway = someone almost always has equity

A small bet invites 2–3 calls and creates a nightmare turn.

5. Shove maximizes fold equity vs the only hands you want to fold
Hands that fold to a shove but call 100:

- A5s
- KcQc
- QcJc
- 65o from UTG+1
- 98o
- 76o

You want these hands out, not peeling for cheap.

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🧠 What about betting 100?
It’s the second‑best option, but it has real problems:

- You get called in 2–3 spots
- The pot becomes ~533 with ~210 behind
- Any club, 6, 5, 9, T, J creates pain
- You’re forced to shove turns where you lose action from worse and get snapped by better

It’s a line that keeps the pot big but reduces your equity realization.

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🧠 What about betting small (60–75)?
This is the worst option:

- You give perfect odds to draws
- You invite 3–4 calls
- You create a turn SPR of ~1 with a bloated, multiway pot
- You lose value from the whale
- You lose fold equity vs the junk that should fold

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⭐ Final recommendation: Shove the flop

You’re ahead of almost everything, the board is wet, the whale will call with worse, and the SPR is perfect for it.

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If you want, we can walk through the exact calling ranges of each villain and compute your equity vs each one to see how robust the shove is."

This is not YOUR board. If you’re playing ranges, easy check 4-way and bet safe turns if checked to again.

If you (as the preflop 3bettor) cbet this flop 4-way, I sure as hell can find a muck with 99-JJ.

Nice call pre.