AA OOP 4BP at hybrid game

I know there is some theory about cbetting small in 4! pots, but I would go at least half pot on the wettish board. It makes it hard when a lot of cards hit, like this one. A Q/J/8 or diamond would also be dicey.

I am not folding. I might ship it, partly for protection and representing a draw. If you are beat, you are beat.

I doubt description of mostly semipros. At those stakes probably some pros and quite a few losing players.

it's not an ideal board or turn but I don't think we can ever fold.

We're most worried about being beaten by JJ (assuming he wouldn't 3 bet 99 and might not have 3 bet 1010 and if he did then maybe he might have folded flop) but there are more combos of QQ and KK plus other draws.

Does he 3 bet AJ? Does he raise flop with JJ?

I would have bet larger on the flop out of position to set up a more symmetrical turn shove. As we are here, my tendency is just to cram it in, albeit that might allow him to fold the weaker part of his range. It feels weird to bet like 350-400 given what we have behind but I think i would do that)

i would bet 1/2 pot on the flop to setup a turn jam.

as played idk that card sucks, but you might be committed. id probably just jam and make him think about it with QQ.

Spr 1.5 on flop we bet small flop and jam every turn.

What do you usually get called by when you 4Bet? Again, I don’t know if your image creates lighter calls. Have you been caught bluffing

I don’t think he pauses to call with KK, maybe AK or QQ - - - JJ & TT seem less likely don’t they? Surely wouldn’t have AJ

Regardless, played it fine, now shove it in.
However, I feel like it’s a value bet & don’t want him to fold.

If I thought the shove would fold him (the stigma of “all-in” makes some more likely to give you credit with that line) I’d make it 250

I can't believe this thread exists.

If you need help getting 1.5x pot into the middle after 4betting Aces, then maybe it's time to try a different game. Poker isn't working out for you.

What even is your question Banana? What do you need help with?

I don't like checking the turn and folding to a shove, because he could shove a draw on that board. He could easily have a pair and a strong draw, unless you are sure he is a type to never do that.

I don't usually agree with PresidentDeuce, but getting an SPR of 1.5 with AA, you need to get the rest of the money in pretty much regardless. Agree it is sort of a pointless thread. You got a bad turn card, but still need to gii.

I used to play 2/5 with a 500 cap and 1/3/6 with a higher cap is bigger than that, This is basically a 2/5 game. Your read that they are mostly winning amateurs doesn't make sense. Games like that usually have less than half regs/pros and a lot of fish similar to lower stakes fish, but maybe splashier. The style of the game seems more professional, with more 3-betting and less limping. There are some semipros, but that isn't going to be the majority. You are making the wrong reads if you think they are mostly semipros. You need to be able to tell the pros from the fishes.

I'm guessing the whale is the only reason we're sitting at the table? Cuz otherwise it is going to be very difficult to win money in a raked game full of what sounds like all winning players.

I limp in, but with a Banana image at a 3betty table, fine. I like our 4bet sizing as it offers poor ~7:1 IO in what will be an SPR we won't be able to fold.

SPR is 1.6 so obviously we're committed. We've got the nut flush Ace so it is highly unlikely this guy is on a flush draw unless it is like KQdd (and even then that seems a little loose preflop). So mostly we're up against big pears that we don't want to fold. Think I'd lean to a smallish bet to jam turn. Although some argument for open jamming at this SPR to rep AK / prevent an action killing card from coming. I think I would prefer the latter with a Banana image, but maybe not so much with mine.

Not the greatest card since TT got there and a somewhat unlikely KQs. But more chance KK/QQ continue with their straight outs. I continue thru with my plan and shove.

GcluelessNLnoobG

You don't think creating an SPR of lol 1.6 accomplishes this?

This biggest reason to 4bet larger is this guy has indicated he likely has a hand that won't fold to larger sizing, but otherwise we've more than created an awesome SPR / offered horrendous IO.

GcluelessNLnoobG

About the only flop we should even consider folding at this SPR is like QJThhh. Even on our hand if we simply only give him KK-99 preflop, we're still a 12-9 fave combo-wise on the turn. And if we start giving him some KQs then we're also going to have to start giving him some big Jxs too.

Gfoldingisn'tanoptionpostflopatthisSPR,imoG

Result:

I wrote a rather rambling answer to this before the reveal but must have forgotten to press "post" - in essence:

It's UTG vs MP in a 4bet pot against a player described as "unknown tight ABC" so ranges are very snug. Would think MP can have 100% of AA-QQ, all AK, AQs, AJs, KQs, maybe all JJ, some TT-99 (obviously how much is important but unknown), probably some other partial suited Broadways but not many - for example I wouldn't expect to see JTs often. (The tank call means nothing; almost all hands will be a decision between shoving and calling, or calling and folding).

Then there's your own range. How much are you 4betting JJ here? Do you ever 4bet TT-99? Are you range cbetting flop small?

From both perspectives there is a massive difference between KK and QQ here. QQ is open-ended (on the turn) and also unblocks AK where KK blocks it. From his perspective I would be more likely to call down with QQ than KK.

People are saying this is just an auto-stackoff and forget about it; I disagree. Range flop cbet might be one thing but the turn card really is very dynamic.

If you do shove turn, do you get called half the time by worse?I really don't think KK/QQ/AJs are automatically calling here at all. QQ I do think is an autocall but KK and AJs might find a fold (I mean what does KK hope to beat, double blocking AK?) There are no flush draws at all other than KQdd. You've got to tweak your preflop ranges as well, if you think MP has no TT-99 or KQs for example then the situation is a lot better.

But is check-calling turn any better? You'd think AK will fold the flop a fair bit. Does he shove KK-QQ/AJs himself on the turn? There are no other pure bluff hands that call the flop. If it gets checked down on turn and river you are ahead. Are you checking the turn to check-fold, but jamming river if it gets checked back? Does he jam turn with QQ?

This is far from auto-stackoff, far less an autoshove. I do think my choice might be to shove turn but don't think you'll get rich from it, and I'm quite tempted by check-fold turn/jam river.

There could be a couple of problems with my thinking - (1) I should discount AA/KK/AK somewhat for a 5betting range and (2) my assumption that AK gets overfolded on the flop may be a bad one.

Going back to preflop - "unknown tight ABC" might just be JJ+, AK with a rare smattering of other hands. Ultimately if all MP gets to the turn with is something like JJ+ then it's a fairly straightforward jam as you are well ahead. If you are as unknown to him as he is to you then those nuttish hands (TT, 99, KQs) may not even be a factor

I need to get my head around 4bet pots better

I always wonder if Banana's opponents have reads on him, which lead them to take actions we wouldn't expect, if we're just basing our analysis on his reads of them.

Like, I wouldn't expect this V to call a 4B with AJ/KQ/TT/99, but if he thinks Banana can be OOL, maybe he does. It's the wondering if they're adjusting to Banana that makes analyzing his hands more difficult, and which makes the turn so dynamic here. Maybe he thinks Banana gets here with AJ, JT, KQ, TT, or 99.

I can somewhat see this V folding QQ on the turn, based on the read, but if he thinks Banana is doing Bananigans, maybe not. Then again, if he thinks Banana is capable of 4B'ing light, there are a whole bunch of hands QQ is behind, beyond just AA/KK.

Yeah, I just made up a new term. Banana + Shenanigans = Bananigans.

If V said he'd snap call with KK, that makes me think he's risk averse and / or believes he has a skill edge post. If he can get here the way he did with KK, it suggests he wouldn't 5B KK pre (though maybe he would and we can't make that assumption). If he thinks QQ is no good and he's just on a draw, I think he's likely to fold to the jam. He'll tell himself he can find a better spot.

Does he jam turn with QQ if Banana checks to him? Against anyone else, he might, though I think this V type likes to pot control with non-nutted hands. Against Banana, who knows? If he thought he was bluff catching on the flop, he might just ship it when Banana checks turn, double blocking KQ.

If the turn checks through, I think he has a hard time folding QQ to a river jam on a brick.

IMHO, some of you are *way* overthinking super small SPR pots.

As has been said around these parts before, SPR doesn't necessarily mean you can turn off your brain... but this ain't that spot, imo.

GcluelessturnedoffbrainnoobG

Yeah, I agree with this. In this situation it isn't complicated. Bet the flop and shove the turn. You could bet smaller on the turn or maybe check to induce on a drier board.

You might get away with lazy "cos SPR" thinking in a SRP. In a 4bet pot SPR is always going to be pretty shallow but while that comes into sharp focus, other effects get magnified far more: range advantage is a huge effect (hence we cbet so often) and as for overthinking, if there's ever a time to try and break down a range it's in a 4bet pot when (1) the ranges are small and/or condensed and (2) the importance of individual hands is heightened - this hand being a prime example, where how one player or the other plays AK or JJ, say, has a huge bearing on way to be most profitable, rather than just "yeah shallow"

The simplification is that the available paths are reduced, in this case shove, check-call or check-fold with no "but what if I get raised" or "what about sizing" questions

So, just to be clear, if we had checked turn and V shoved you all would call?

i like a bigger size pre. 250-275. were oop vs an unknown abc with the nuts. that makes flop 500 with 650 back, we can just jam flop

I wouldn't have checked turn, but would have called jam if I did.

Yeah, it's actually really simple.

You need 38% equity to call a jam on the turn.

You have 48% if villain's range is literally just 99+

You still have 41% if you give villain full combos of KQs. (though he shouldn't have those very often).

Any other hand you can name only makes a call more profitable.

Rather than framing the situation as if that's the only possibility, consider all the possibilities.

What if we jam turn? What worse hands call? Are there any?

What if we check turn, and he checks back?

What if we check and he bets small?

What if we check and he jams?

If we jam turn, we deny him the opportunity to jam worse, and give him the opportunity to get away from his hand.

If we check turn, we give him the opportunity to make a mistake, either by checking back or jamming.

I'd love to see him check back so we can bet river.

I'm less in love with calling a jam, but at least it's possible he's jamming with worse when we check. So calling a jam is better than jamming ourselves.

The one thing I don't want him to do is bet small, putting the pressure back on us to decide how we want to respond. Luckily that's the action he's least likely to take here, either for value or as a bluff, and even if it what he does, we still beat some hands in his small bet range.

Might have been a better play than folding him with a jam. You want his money!
Maybe a smaller bet

If v has 2pair here, you’re way behind, but it doesn’t seem likely from the action.

Personally, this is the kind of play that would piss me off for awhile. I would be mad that I didn’t bet smaller and get some value.

It’s hard to get value as a tight player. I would have been happy to get another couple hundred from him.