2/5 ship or coldcall?

All in.

Anything you fold out was check/folding the river anyway.

How are you ranging your opponents?

V1 isn't capped. He could check flop with AA or KK. But more likely, he just has 1P.

V2 probably isn't checking flop with 2P+, unless he flatted pre with AK and decided to slow play it on the flop for some reason. He might be on a draw, maybe a combo draw.

We might have the best hand. Are we trying to make them fold worse hands?

If we jam $715 into $405, what hands do we think will call? Do we think V1 is calling off another $660 with worse value? Is V2 going to call off another $540 with a combo draw?

What's the worst hand we expect to call if we jam? AK? How likely is it either of them has AK? Are either of them calling an over-bet jam with just AQ or a combo draw?

I think shipping could be fine. I'm not expecting better to fold. I'm mostly expecting to get called by higher sets and big draws. Jamming makes sure we get max value from the big draws, at the risk of getting snapped off by higher sets.

Alternatively, since we're not folding out better hands or strong draws, and we get to act last, I wonder if it would be higher EV to flat call, to let one or the other bet brick rivers.

If we flat and V1 over-calls, the pot will be $700 going to the river, and we'll have $540 left. We can get decide what we want to do after seeing what they do.

If we flat and V1 re-raises, we might be able to get away from our hand. It seems pretty unlikely V1 is going to 3B as a bluff or with worse value.

I like a call. A shove folds out Kx and flush draws. I would plan to get it in on a river brick.

id just call and see what happens on the river. if you raise its to minraiase as i dont think anything worse will call more as your hand is pretty face up as a set if you do. a minraise might not even get called.

I agree that everyone folds if you jam and you don’t want that. Nobody else has a set or the flop doesn’t check thru. So, give them some rope and call.

They woke up on the turn with the Asian guy thinking his JJ is good and the other guy leaning on his bad ace. If there was ever a good time to slow play, this is it with 2 players betting the turn.

Even a flush draw doesn’t check the flop often, so I think it’s all about value. Let villain(s) put $ in on the river, then jack it up.

I don’t understand some people’s passion for trying to figure out all the possible ways we could be beat. Once we decide to play for stacks, no reason to look for monsters under the bed.

This is my least favorite hand, because it’s a symbol of evil. But this pot is yours, I think if they hit the river it will be 2pair & not enough

Yes, shoving folds out flush draws. That's the point.

Those hands won't pay off on the river. They can only out draw us. Letting them freeroll is probably the worst possible thing we could do.

You're suggesting we forego value against hands that would call our shove so we can keep in hands with reverse implied odds.

Wut???

I think it is because it would be unlikely we get fold equity from draws. We indeed let them freeroll but we also keep pairs by river and random bluffs from missed draws.

I would lean towards cold calling. Neither players seems that strong given the betting. I'm not sure how afraid we should be of the draws. Most high equity draws would bet the flop in either player's shoes and V2 probably isn't raising a draw on the turn after checking back the flop. Of the other two options, I believe an all-in has more merits than a min-raise. The min-raise will probably get called, but the subsequent river jam won't. V2 seems like a big station and there's a decent likelihood he calls an all-in when we're only representing two realistic value hands. We also shutout the flush draws from either player which aren't likely to put any more money in unless they hit.

Bluffing is a thing. Hero picked up a great live tell and saw the chip glance, V wanted to bluff flop. Nobody obliged so he leaps at the turn. This kind of player isnt just going to give up after this mountain of information we've gathered. Give him rope.

Just calling gives the fish in BB/straddle over 3-1 to chase the myriad gutshots & A/K FH draws now possible.

A jam might get a non-diamond oesd to fold. Fish are never folding a flush draw to a jam, especially if it’s a royal draw.

In loose passive 1-3/2-5 I’ve seen a lot of white blackbirds after slow playing sets, especially small ones.

He already bluffed. And got called. We can't count on him doing it again on the river. He's either gonna fold to any bet, or stack us when he makes his draw.

I really can't believe this is becoming a debate tbh. In 2026, someone's strategy advice is "Let the flush draw have a free river so you can get more value when it bricks"

I'm in clown world.

Why does everyone seem to assume he didn't have 44?

Why would you want a flush draw to fold? Yes, that denies equity, but you profit more when a flush draw calls, assuming you can bet enough to make the pot odds unfavorable and you don’t pay off when the draw hits.

In this spot, if we shove we don’t need to worry about implied odds and we aren’t giving villain anywhere near correct pot odds to call. We certainly want villain to call, not fold with a flush draw when we shove. He may not oblige, but we win more when he does call than when he folds.

Well played. Nice hand. Good game.

I like a jam because they (mainly V2, but maybe V1) are rarely folding AK (maybe AQ), 44, or a big draw for the price. He's put in $200+ already.

Yes we can.

Or he's going to bluff the river when he misses. Or he's going to fold to a turn raise because it's the most blatantly obvious street people play for stacks after trapping.

The problem with your misread here is that you are only considering population tendencies and not live tells. "Fish no fold draw, me bet big to charge money" when V telegraphed a x/r attempt. For whatever reason you seem to think he'd just shut down on the river despite what we've observed up until that point.

He may. He may not. It may depend on how high his FD is, or how many buy-ins he brought with him.

It's hard for us to be bluffing if we cold 3B jam here. Our bluffs are likely to be draws to the nuts, which means he should fold his worse draws.

If he's capable of working that out, he may be capable of working out that our sets remove at least one, if not two of his outs. Even drawing to the nuts, he may not feel like gambling with less than 20% equity when he'll barely be getting 2:1 pot odds.

If we shove, we may get snapped off by the PFR's higher sets that he slow played on the flop.

If we cold 3B, and V1 snaps or 4B jams... it's kind of impossible for him to be bluffing. In that scenario, it doesn't matter if V2 folds or calls, because we're drawing to one out.

AK that slow played pre and on flop. AQ. Maybe A4 or a stubborn AJ. Hell, he might call with any ace. The pot is $1505 and hero jams for $175 more. He only needs to catch hero bluffing around 10% of the time to make it a profitable call.

If he has QJdd or QTdd and he thinks hero ever does this with a worse FD, it's a reasonable spot to bluff catch, now that he has a pair. It's not like we're showing up with a lot of hands that can beat QX here. Are we really getting here this way and jamming river with KX, or some craptastic A-rag combo?

Does it matter what he has? Once V1 folds, we know we have the best hand, unless this guy decided to raise turn with exactly JTdd, and after drilling the best card in the deck, decided to leave almost $200 on the table.

That's why we should call turn, not raise. We both can have a ton of busted flush draws here. Any pair is a decent bluff catcher. We're not repping much when we flat pre on the BTN, check back flop, and flat turn. We look like we were on a draw that missed. Some beanie-copter solver-geeks might hero call with any pair, hoping to look like a genius when we do this with air.

Like I'm all for making exploitative plays and if someone tells me they love their hand and I have the nuts then lets just put more money in for them. But there's really not much V can be in love with here on the turn. 3betting is as bad as donking into a player who bets out of turn. Why are we giving him an opportunity to fold? Dont be so afraid of draws, and if you cant fold to a river jam when the obvious draw completes then I dont know what to tell you. You dont HAVE to call like someone else in here seems to believe.

I’m not worried about villain folding. IF villain has a flush draw, though, we need to bet on the turn. If we wait until the river, we have zero chance to make any more money on the hand. Villain either hits the flush and beats us, or he misses and folds to a river bet. We must act now to increase our EV. If we shove and he calls, great; he made a call with insufficient pot odds - our EV increased. If he folds, not as great but not entirely terrible either. We have denied villains equity and picked up a decent pot. Flatting neither denies equity nor increases our EV, so if we suspect villain has a flush draw, we should shove.

Obviously villain may have a hand that beats us, so the decision is not so clear cut, but flush draws should make us lean toward the shove.

The read for the player we're up against seems off. You said he's assumed to be passive, but he's playing aggressively in the current hand, and played the HH like an aggrofish:

Read:
"V2 ~ mawg, opens for gigantic sizings(30~45), assume to be passive in general
HH
fish limps ep, V2 opens for 35 in ep+1
Flop Q34cc V2 cbets 60 fish x/c
Turn 9 V2 bets 80, fish x/r 200, V2 calls
Riv T, fish jams, V2 snaps w/TT??? Fish shows Q9"

Anyway both raise and call have merit. The question is how to best get all the money in. You labeled V2 as passive, and against a passive player reraising turn is probably best.

However in reality he raised turn and barreled river huge even after your call representing a big hand, and apparently he had a bricked flush draw?

He sounds more like an aggrofish, and your turn call could be best against someone who is more likely to make mistakes bluffing off than calling off.