5/10: top 2p gets multi-way action

Curious to hear from others, and I'm curious too, to hear from SolverLand, but that sizing looks like he exactly has 44, and nothing else. It looks like he's offering 9 outs sufficient-ish IO to draw, knowing they only have 7.

Shrug. At 150 bb, if he called with 44 and hit yahtzee, that's life with Top 2. Which made hands are you thinking V has, if not 44? TT 3!'s, no? ATs is impossible, given the board and H's hand. I'm 3!'ing with ATo or folding, pf.

If you *know* V has 44, you're screwed, and should fold. But that's the trick, isn't it? AP, torn between call to let sticky reg contribute, or just stick it in now.

do you always put people on a set when they CR flop? did you notice hero bet < 1/3 pot which means AK/AQ/AJ should not be ruled out?

also when he doesnt bet turn more than 1/2 pot that weakens his range considerably. on a flush draw board flopped sets usually will bet bigger on turn.

narrowing someone's range to one hand is generally losing poker.

also, 9 combos of 44?

4h4d
4c4d
4h4c

where you do get 9?

OP im either shoving or raising. first thought shoving is good but I dont want AK folding. so probably just raise small and GII on river. any size raise will get the guy behind you to fold draws anyway.

When you don’t play many hands, you get into the action with a strong range that should be sticky.

I don’t why A4s jumps out at me, as I haven’t seen it mentioned.

Don’t play this high, so don’t know what’s standard, but if I play this weak hand, I am raising a bigger size pre-flop. I want everyone to fold or reduce the field to one player.

You may have trapped yourself or be ahead, but I think you reraise the flop for two reasons:
1. Reduce the field
2. You want the initiative and now whoever is left, probably checks the turn giving you lots of options.

As played, I call simply because I want to see if villain barrels the river. I see a lot of confident turn players, become suddenly unsure when their opponent is still around for the river.

I think the reason people are saying this has to be a big hand is because this is V2, who has said he is uncomfortable with these stacks, raising two people and following up getting called in two spots with another bet. If he gets called at all, he’s ready to ship the river.

Even if we allow that this could be A4s, there is one combo of that. There are 4 combos of sets, 3 if we discount TT.

Our forum regular who always says he is uncomfortable with deep stacks is GG. If GG took this line he would likely have 44 or TT always.

We also have to be wary of V1 who is still behind us. I don’t think he has us beat, but could he have a combo draw that we might pay off if a non-obvious out hits? Does that mean we are jamming or folding?

Wow, at first this seemed straightforward (cooler if you lose, don't fold) but there are a few weird angles:
- vs 2 players it's a bit of a parlay to put them on 2 hands you are comfortable stacking off against. The caller has QJss etc so then the c/r'ing V can have AKss, or maybe the V has AT also... But it's easier to see this as 44 and some kind of flush draw.
-Then SB comes out with a turn bet that seems to offer a decent price to the combo draws and represents a bit of a sizing tell that counter indicates 44/TT.
-Even if SB has one of the top+fd hands, do we still have to worry that the LP player is sandbagging a set?

Grunch:

PRE - my gut reaction is we're courting disaster raising ATo from the HJ for this size, in this line-up / configuration, and we should either raise bigger to make it less likely the players in position call, or we should just fold.

FLOP - I think we should size up to target all the worse AX combos and draws in our opponents' ranges. As played, I'm not liking this situation, where V2 is x/r'ing, but using a small size. I don't want to flat call and allow V1 to come along. I don't love raising into a range that might include TT and 44, but I might min-click this, just to get V1 to fold. Just make it $290.

TURN - if V2 was a typical cash game reg, I'd expect him to size up with 2P / sets, and I'd think this 1/2 pot sizing is more indicative of a semi-bluff. But it's kind of insane for him to run a multi-street bluff after two opponents called his flop x/r. I have to wonder if this is the sizing he'd use in a tournament, where ICM pressure leads to over-folding, and allows for smaller bet sizing.

I'd think we definitely have V1 beat when he double-flats the flop. So really this comes down to WTF we think V2 is doing here. If we think he gets here with TT/44, and takes this sizing, then we have to ask if he can find a super-nitty fold if we raise. If not, I think we should just fold.

It's interesting that there's only one combo of TT possible, making his value range weighted more towards 44 and the other combos of AT. He's basically got 4 combos that beat us, and 4 combos that are chops. If we can make him fold a chop or bottom set at any frequency if we raise, that's a huge win. It's just hard to imagine he's taking this line with a plan to fold AT or 44 if we raise.

The water gets a bit muddy if we think he could take this line with some other AX combos, like AK/AQ/AJ. Obviously it's a disaster if we fold.

I dunno. He x/r'd turn into multiple opponents, and barreled turn. Even though his sizing looks weird, I probably just give him the benefit of the doubt and fold.

ETA - I don't know why I overlooked A4. That's also a possibility here, making it much harder to fold. So...yeah, I think we have to raise flop or turn. We didn't raise flop, so now I want to raise turn. We don't have to go nuts. Just click it back to push V1 out and make sure V2 doesn't find a ridiculous hero fold with worse.

Wtf at some of these replies. Flop is way too small id go half pot at least. You don't need to GTO small. You have a big hand it's live poker on a wet board just bet bigger. Don't 3bet flop. I'm not folding turn for this bet ever in a million years. Just see the river. And my God about folding pre in the HJ vs a limp with ATo. What.

Holy shite. I wasn't even considering V1 might be sand-bagging something.

I mean...I can't imagine V1 doesn't 3B TT pre from the CO. I don't think there are any ATs combos possible, so he may get here with ATo, and for that matter, maybe A4dd. The read is that he's sticky, so those combos might be in range, along with 44.

Would he just flat call flop with ATo or 44 when hero c-bets less than 1/3 pot, giving everyone else good odds to come along? That seems insane to me. I'd think he'd only flat with A4 if he's somehow worried about someone having exactly AT. If he thinks we're only opening ATs, not ATo, and he has A4dd, that's just one combo of ATs left.

If we start giving V1 combos of AT and A4, we're cutting V2's value down to 1 or 2 combos. It would be sick to be up against a set and 2P here, or just AT and A4.

I agree V2's turn bet sizing is odd. It's the sort of sizing someone might take if they were semi-bluffing, but I'd expect that more in a HU pot, not a multi-way pot, and I'd think once his flop x/r gets two callers, he'd shut it down on the turn.

I dunno. Most people tend to under-bluff in multi-way pots. I'd think someone whose style is more tournament-oriented would have even fewer bluffs here. It seems like V2 has a value hand and is using more tournament-style sizing, and V1 is more likely on a draw that's come along because he's been given a great price and he's IP.

Yeah I don't know if v1 "sandbagging" makes a lot of sense. Maybe he flat calls 44 twice, concerned about a higher set but in the way of "only a better hand calls if I shove, so I'll just call". Agree most likely to be a big draw Axss or bway+fd. But it could I guess be a weaker FD if they are "sticky postflop"

I can see SB playing AK this way. Or AQss, AJss maybe. If this is a good player what are they calling SB and c/r flop with here other than pocket pairs and ace-beef?

A solver would tell you to call given there's two spades out there and a number of combo draws he could raise with, but what a solver would do here isn't too relevant. From a sizing perspective I like calling the turn - if he had 44 wouldn't he go larger to kick out your draws? These live hands aren't really good to comment on - you know better then all of us what he has here as people playing insanely exploitable so the live read > anything you're going to hear on here.