The great "Poker is rigged" debate - Collected threads edition

As we found out with Slugant.... these are posts of a very, very young individual. Im sure you are maybe just over legal gambling age, but the posts suggests you are not....

This is the problem you see, sites have to cater for the young gamers and those who undoubtedly have 'conditions' associated with lazy parenting, shoving screens in front of them from the age of 6 months old to keep them quiet.

Aww, Grandpa is trying the "you're such a child!!!!" routine again. Imagine if you had invested all that wasted time in here to properly learn basic poker math.....anyway, good luck with your penny tournaments and fkn freerolls lmao.

I will reply to this rather than Slugant, as he just chooses to focus on getting an angle on something that deflects from the point, as we know (over and over).

I agree with most things you said, the poker dried up because of the points you raise.

And i agree sites had to come up with something that non-poker/poor recreational players found appealing.

However, i do think you have underestimated how much 'spin and go' type tournaments account for a sites revenue. It will depend on which network you play on to see the impact of this. Certainly Ipoker is ruled by their 'twister' format, which is instantaneuos games, 24hrs. The tournaments are poorly populated, the cash games ok, but nothing special on numbers.

If cash and tournament play was the big earner, the biggest appeal for any site.... the advertising would be geared to that.

Any site you can name, their tv ads and the like are ALL geared towards their version of 'spin and go'....

Yes the WSOP is renowned for all the players yelling at clouds.

This reply would be funny amongst your schoolmates.

This is getting boring, gramps. Old clueless rigturds are like very small oranges, you squeeze once and all the juice is gone.

Wish you lots of losing sessions (jk, they will happen anyway) and have fun wasting your time pretending someone cares about your ramblings.

Maybe the other guy has some more entertainment value once Slugant has looked at those totally rIgGeD hands...

Actually you have send me 5 PM's. Somehow all without a working link.
I mean right now we can safely assume you are 100% a troll right?
At least I do. Especially after this

You are either a troll or a mentally ill conspiracy theorist, you decide.
But its clear to me dealing with you wont get anyone anywhere.
So if you really want to show misdealings with your sample, I've already explained how to do it before, and every big tracker has a trial period so it wont even cost you anything.
But of course we wont see anything ever.

A guy using 'rigturd' who joined the site May 2025.... hmmmmm what can you gather from that info......

The amount of times you say something as if they are facts while they are visibly untrue is astounding.

I just opened my iPoker skin to see how much they in fact are ruled by their twister format

Here you can see the current player distribution of their different formats with 8153 player entries across it.
According to TheWaddy tournaments are populated even though including KO 6411 out of 8153 players are playing tournaments... Which is a very low 79% share of the total players:p
According to TheWaddy iPoker is ruled by their twister format yet only 482 out of 8153 players right now to play twister.
Which is just under 6% of total online players.

I just learned that 79% means "poorly populated" and 6% means "ruling iPoker"
You learn something incoherent and nonsensical every day, all you have to day is listen to TheWaddy 🙂

I have sent u working links.

Cant do it myself , dont know how , there are too many options buttons menu’s

Looks like i triggered something deep with the covid comment. Guess ur all shot up and boostered up and still trust ur government. And everyone else is a crazy conspiracy theorist right

Clearly the gubmint invented Covid to force people to stay at home and play rigged online poker.

So, no entertainment from you either? Lame.

With the words of the unforgotten cocaine addict and extreme narcissist Monte: "Where are the good riggies?!"

You never fail to interpret info incorrectly or bend it the way you want. Those playing tournaments are likely to play 1, maybe 2 at a time and have paid ONE tournament fee. Those 482 twister players will be paying a tournament fee over and over as they last an average of about 3 minutes.... anyone playing for an hour in a tournament has paid that one fee.... anyone playing Twister for an hour will be paying 10 to 20 fees an hour.

If they are eliminated in the first 30 seconds, they join another immediately, so 20 is likely the figure to be more likely.

20 x 482 = 9640 players (or tournament fees) per hour. 9640 renewed every hour. Those showing playing standard tournaments, many will have paid ONE fee and many have been there for 2-4hrs.

Its the revenue that these tournaments are creating, that is the key figure part for any site. On top of this, many tournaments dont even reach the prize money guarantee, making Twister even more the profitable version.

And on top of that, the tournament player figures include freerolls!!!!! Very profitable for the sites them players!

You really dont understand business at all, thats why you are blind to it.....

No you havent sent a working link.
But perhaps I cant open them myself and do all the work for you, there are just too many options button menu's. Or maybe im too jabbed up by this Covid conspiracy. Im sure you understand :p
The cant do it myself too many buttons blabla is nonsense and you know it. You've been told now many times to do it and there are numerous youtube tutorials that guide you through every step. If you wanted to check something, you would have, but its clear you are just a troll.
Furthermore, if too many options overwhelm you so much, how did you ever get into poker? Its not a conspiracy. Its just not the game for you

I am not bending any words. I've said, and still do, that tournaments and cash games make up the vast majority of volume for major sites and you claimed Twister is "ruling iPoker"
Only you would dig deeper after seeing 4186 tournaments players versus 482 twister players.
Yes, twister goes a lot faster but its your assumption that they all play 20 an hour and tournaments players only play 1 or 2 (fees) at the time. And this might shock you, but your baseless assumption is wrong. Tournaments players play a lot more than that and a lot of tournaments are rebuy-based meaning the number of fees increase as well. And thats not even mentioning the 873 cash game players who mostly multitable a lot and often play 500+ hands/hour easily. And there were 233 tables running at that time.
All your "numbers" are once again plucked out of thin air.

So I dont need to bend any words because this is what I said. Notice how the word is volume and not revenue, like you bended it. I use exact quotes, you never do.

And this is simply true. Numbers dont lie. But if you want to stick to your view even though all evidence suggests otherwise and dig a deeper hole doing it, be my guest. We all know you love to do this.

And FYI, this is another wrong baseless assumption as well. Because those numbers are all exclusively real money games. I am sure you would like to rectify this statement 🙂
You just really dont understand poker at all, thats why you are blind to it 😉

Bro like i said before , i have almost 4 mil in tournament cashes 700k profit . U prob know me if i told u my name

Ive pm ed u another link after tip from a nice moderator

Lets go and shut gg down and save online poker

Its just to you misunderstanding what is importatant to a business, revenue or volume. If you would like me to accept player volume is more allocated to each division, i can do. But its totally irrelevant figure to a sites success.

Your focusing on volume of players figures, without thinking about what that actually represents for a site. Why do you think they brought 'spin and go' tourns in if they were happy with their tournament/cash volume!?

Alot of naive people in business make similar mistakes, there is a saying you wont be familiar with;

turnover is vanity, profit is sanity but cash is reality

Alot of businesses will quote their turnover instead of actual profit, as it makes their business look successful where its actually failing. 'We turnover $3 million a year', but the net profit is -$500k.

You are quoting volume of players as a marker to what is most profitable to site, a similar attempt to make something look like it isnt. The advertising is all geared to 'twister', 'blast', 'spin and go' because the more they can grow the numbers away from tourns/cash, the more they make.

You say players at twister 'is an assumption thay play 20 an hour'... if the figure playing Twister hovers around the same 482 figure, it doesnt matter if its the same 482 playing multiple games or a different 482, the turnover of games is still the same as these games are over in a few minutes!

This is why you will never see online poker for what it is, you have no thought for the business side..... the greed to make more money, faster. You think small edges are nothing to a gambling business, whereas its actually EVERYTHING.

Its why roulette has a green zero... and why greedy houses took the piss and went to a double zero... and now guess what? triple zero. Its never enough for them, therfore very naive to think the decks are 100% random, its just such an obvious and natural thing for them to do to make the extra money in online poker.

You are believing that they are aware what massive revenue they can make by subtly tweaking decks, with poor regulation not being able to pick it up.... but are choosing not to. With their record with fines rule breaking, along with it being a business with notorious greed in tweaking games to make more money at the consumers expense(eg triple zero roulette), its just so naive. So naive.

Missed it the first time you've said it but if you say so it must be true!! 4 million in tournament cashes, 700k profit, but you cant figure out how to use a tracker because "it has so many buttons and menus". Those two worlds dont coincide.
I dont think I will know you if you said your name and I quite prefer it that way

You claim to have all the data. You are the one able to "shut gg down and save online poker".
One question/suggestion though. Since you dont trust GG and dont trust the Dutch government... why do you play on GG which is licensed by the Dutch government? With your paranoia tendencies of course you will feel screwed over, its in your nature.
Why not play a site like CoinPoker that has no affiliation with the sneaky Dutch government?

If you want to quote me, quote me right. I said this and exactly this:

I even said quick action is a rake grab. But even then the rake they earn from cash games alone is higher than from twister. Cash game players reach higher hands/hour and almost every hand is raked. And the volume there is higher.

Next time if you want to quote someone, why not click the Quote button under a post. Its easier, cleaner and that way you cant make up sentences thats never been said.

Like this:

Direct quote me where I said I think small edges are nothing.
You cant.
Its another made up story by you.
You are making up arguments for someone even though they never said it and then you argue against them.
Meanwhile you make something up like "part of the tournaments are freerolls" even though its all real money games and zero playmoney games so another lie by you.

They dont need to tweak the deck to make a lot of money, they have twister remember🙂
If they get more customers, they get more revenue. By tweaking the deck and make people suspicious about their site they wont attract customers. Its ABC stuff but too much for you to understand somehow.
You know who also thinks major sites have no reason to tweak the deck.. your hero and person you claim knows almost more than anyone about online poker Phil Galfond

All areas? It must be a whirlpool in your head making up all these things.
I've criticized a lot of sites about many a topic.
Just GG I've criticized over high rake, preflop rake, sketchy graph that includes rake paid in the winnings-line, PVI system that slashes advertised rakeback, handling of Moneytaker69 situation and even more. Pretty much the only thing I defend about GG is that, like other major sites, their RNG is fair.
I am very critical of sites but my criticism is based on facts, not on feelings like yours.

Actually the analogy is weird. Because we dont play bookies, we play poker.
The horse racing loser is mad at the bookies for losing just like the loser at poker is mad at the pokersite for losing.
And in poker I am a long-term winner, so I would be happy with my 'bookie'... But you've said you were a 25 year+ long winner as well... So I guess we should both hang out at the pokersite supporting area right?
Because in that analogy only the losers want to stick it to the bookies/pokersite and me crossed with them... yet thats exactly where you are... wonder why 🙂

The biggest cooler is the fact that I asked for more entertaining rigturds and we got YoungNit (who is actually even older than grandpa Waddy)

But if you know coinpoker has a ridiculous RNG that is coolering you into losing money, why do you keep playing there?

I've read so many riggie stories here and they all have 1 thing in common. They keep on playing the site that they for sure know is rigged.

It just doesnt make any sense. And its not like they are getting joy out of it, in fact it often seems like the games of poker infuriates them. It seems so obviously like a lose-lose situation. Just go do something you win at, or you enjoy. Perhaps even both. But why spend so much time doing neither?

So you do have the hands tracked with pencil and paper for the whole time...

Can we please see the paperwork?

You are all mental

Why the hell would you spend all your time with this utter nonsense.

Consider your life choices

If you think it’s rigged, don’t play!!!’

I havent seen much poker advertisement lately and can remember 0 advertisement of spin and go formats. I am sure there were or are some internet banners but every large campaignI am aware off was aimed at large tournaments trying to sell the hit it big dream.

You are such a stereotype.

So you are definitely the old guy who cant keep up anymore.

There is no shame in that. Happened to me in multiple games including poker.

I used to be good to world class in multiple games but now i am old. I have a family and commitments. I dont have the time to study and improve like i used to and my mind isnt as agile as it used to be.

What is your point? Yes extremely fast poker games with few players at the same table are something that makes sense online and doesn't really live. From both a player experience and a economic point of view.

You are flip flopping here. On one hand all poker companies are evil and chasing winning but somehow the wsop wouldnt spread the games because they are not real poker?

They dont spread it because there isnt money to be made.

No that is actually a very bad comparison.

I am a bit lost though are you complaining that companies spread games you dont consider pure poker or that they rig games or both?

You are making a lot of assumptions here. Some probably right some probably wrong.

I would just like to point out that you have no idea how gambling companies operate and have absolutely no clue about the business side of things.

It is true that certain high level executives in online poker dream about making poker more of a slot game like experience.

The problem is that the poker boom brought a lot of player but the recreational have for the most part stopped to play, the sheep have been sheered and the fish have been caught.

The percentage of professional players and semi professional players were just too high. the eco system was unstable as not enough new money was flowing in.

Something had to be done. So rake back was cut down on, rewards for regular players lowered and so on to make more room for marketing spend on new recreational players. But even that wasn't enough.

Fish needed to be predicted from predator. there have been multiple approaches to that. anonymous tables, restricted player pools and also games that offer a lower edge. How do you lower the edge of the better player? you speed up the game.

Throw in some randomisation in an attempt to please the gambler crowd and you get spin and go.

You have no idea of the business side of things. I find it hilarious you out of all people would call someone out on that.

You use Roulette as argument for your point of view, yet it is the best evidence that there is no cheating. The edge of Roulette is built into the game rules. I agree that double and even triple 0 roulette are ridiculous.

It shows though that if an operator wants to increase his edge they are simply changing the rules instead of rigging the games.

Just like in poker.

So you just showed how gambling operators simply change the rules to increase their edge and then use it as evidence that they cheat instead of simply changing the rules.

You cant make up this ****.

Seriously man there is no consistency in what you are saying.

Hey you just figured something out. Thats how you improve at poker.

Yes it is true the bigger pots get and the more bets go into the middle the tighter ranges tend to get. Well done mate! No go out and apply it to your game.

Who doesn't deal randomly.

Which sites went out of business for not dealing fair.

To say i have no idea of business and sites objectives, is more than a little baffling..... especially as i have my own businesses and hold business qualifications.

You say im 'flip-flopping' and you seem to think not believing the deck is 100% random and pointing out sites turning to gambling games 'based on poker', is somehow going against each other.

It is not.

Sites business executives sole focus is making money and how this can be achieved. You admit the interest from recreational players for traditional poker has waned tremendously. You admit that sites could not sustain operating just by authentic poker games running their course.

So sites turned to getting the out and out gamblers into their sites. This started with poker site links to Casinos and vice versa. Several high profile poker players (Poker million winner Victoria Coren for example) stepped down from promoting Pokerstars and the likes because of this. They were happy to promote poker but not out and out gambling.

All the promotional tv adverts (i dont know where you live, but if its UK this would be impossible to miss) for some years have been geared to 'jackpot' '3min' type tournaments as discussed, with no mention of cash/tournaments/sit and go.... as the target is no longer the poker player, but the gambling thrill junkie. One tv advert indeed, shows a guy playing on his phone on a bus, with his eyes spinning!

The need has been identified to attract out and out gamblers to Poker sites. This is backed up by regulation bringing in 'affordability guidelines'. There is a recognised emphasis that the new average customer will be those gambling far more than a poker player ever did.

So the connection between the dominant force of 'jackpot spin and go's' and a deck that performs with exciting outcomes, is this is what the new gambler wants from the site. This has been the identified as the way forward. Dont tell me i dont know this and that and i have no idea. We have these tournaments, they are the only ones being advertised in high cost advertising. Fact. If you really cant figure out why this is, you just dont know business.

We had adjusted decks designed to retain custom, this hasnt cut the mustard (you agree on that numbers continued to drop), they came up with a format that;

1 Brought in a different customer, increasing numbers and revenue
2 Were willing to gamble more at a greater volume, increasing revenue
3 Would vastly reduce questions on randomness due to them being high variance 'all in fests'
4 Would attract players who knew little about poker odds
5 Would attract players that actually enjoyed the wild lead swings during hands and would rather see premium boards than queen hi wins

The more sites can get the customer playing the jackpot games, the better all round for them due to the 1-5 list above. If they can get enough, your tournaments will evetually go. Hence the advertising for this format only.

888 Poker stopped sit and go altogether and just promote their version 'Blast'. If you join their site for Poker, the rewards are all in Blast tickets.

I currently play on Sky. The vast majority (7 out of 9) of 'leaderboard' competitions at the moment are for 'Twister' tournaments.

If you are unable to identify why and what is happening at poker sites, when the proof is right in front of your eyes, its probably why you dont see the rest for what it is.

What a load of twaddle

What is the debate?

Think you are all lost in trying to prove each other wrong when none of you have any evidence or substantial proof that what your saying is true.

Is online poker rigged?

Waddy sez the proof is in the pudd'n

Compelling stuff

Also he haz "businesses" and "business qualifications"

A true intellectual titan, the supposed efficient allocator of resources and steward of capital who still somehow has time to post in quite possibly the dumbest (but also quite hilarious) thread in 2+2 history